Details on Delta TA
08-15-2014, 05:29 AM
#641
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: No to large RJs
Posts: 369
My hope is that the many lurkers here will remember how the Moak disciples trashed me and others as liars etc. when we tried to warn this pilot group about what Mr. Moak was planning for us. It's now clear to everyone who Moak is.
The next time people like slowplay, alfaromeo, shiznit, sailingfun, etc. trash people who dare speak against ALPA "leadership", remember who was really being truthful and who was really being deceptive.
Carl
The next time people like slowplay, alfaromeo, shiznit, sailingfun, etc. trash people who dare speak against ALPA "leadership", remember who was really being truthful and who was really being deceptive.
Carl
08-15-2014, 06:15 AM
#642
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,431
The WS mafia, as some call it, is a senior group that bids good trips that are then placed on the swap board for straight pick up (or just PDd) and then their schedule is clear. Supposedly down to 0. Then they go back in and pick up good WS trips with low block and full credit. They want trips with the most CR and min TAFB and put themselves on short short call to get them. I've had 88As explain it to me, 88Bs are kind of coy about it when asked. 
They WS until it becomes apparent that they should've GS'd but then they WS anyways. There is a lot of this.
A good day or two day trip comes up in open time you'll see it go very senior and very quickly. Ive talked to Captains who do it, their joke is if they get injured their spouse has been instructed to go back and pick up as much as possible before telling the company.
So yes, WSs are senior, in seniority order if they meet credit requirements. And guys will do it day after day back to back because their schedules are wide open. I think they, in times of no GS, can still score 100+ hours with little block. Are they playing with fire? Sure, at the end of the month they'll pick up less than ideal WS trips if short.
You do see that a lot but if you want to try it you better be senior.
They WS until it becomes apparent that they should've GS'd but then they WS anyways. There is a lot of this.
A good day or two day trip comes up in open time you'll see it go very senior and very quickly. Ive talked to Captains who do it, their joke is if they get injured their spouse has been instructed to go back and pick up as much as possible before telling the company.
So yes, WSs are senior, in seniority order if they meet credit requirements. And guys will do it day after day back to back because their schedules are wide open. I think they, in times of no GS, can still score 100+ hours with little block. Are they playing with fire? Sure, at the end of the month they'll pick up less than ideal WS trips if short.
You do see that a lot but if you want to try it you better be senior.
Second, it means that more reserves get to stay home, because the senior guys WSing the good one and two day trips that pop up are flying them, rather than reserves.
I've never understood the idea that junior pilot B doesn't "like" what senior pilot A is doing, even though it is completely contractually kosher. That is a different animal than the trip parking issue we had (which was fixed,by the way, due to line pilot input to their reps) because it WAS a way to circumvent the contract.
On the other hand perhaps you aren't objecting to any of it--merely explaining.
08-15-2014, 06:18 AM
#643
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,431
It is unforgivable in fact. There are many things he could have said that would have elegantly made our our point clear about how much we sacrificed and are due, etc, without having to resort to a "burn the house down" type of press release. However it appears that he said nothing close to that.
I am waiting for further clarification before I break out the pitchforks. But then, that is just one opinion of many.
08-15-2014, 06:34 AM
#644
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 757/767
Posts: 588
Most of the contract talks are likely to center on basic compensation—hourly pay rates and how much carriers pay into pilots’ retirement plans. “There will be a business discussion of pay as it relates to revenue,” Moak says. “You can argue about $2 or $2.05, and that matters to the crew member,” but “you’re working on the margins” on the new contracts, he says.
Last edited by Oberon; 08-15-2014 at 07:09 AM. Reason: Nuance doesn't get far on the internet.
08-15-2014, 07:48 AM
#645
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 7ER Capt
Posts: 461
I completely disagree right back atcha. If you have never seen a GS at your seniority, it's because you haven't learned the system.
I taught my best friend (very junior north 320A) how to use the system. His first year after the merger, he made $40K more than he had ever made in his life... all at less block time than he usually flew!
1.5 above anything is an immediate no from me... (unless we're talking a 1.5 pay increase!... then I'm completely on board!)
I have never been senior since moving to the left seat and I will do over 3 Bills this year... on about 600hrs block.
Work smarter, not harder.
I taught my best friend (very junior north 320A) how to use the system. His first year after the merger, he made $40K more than he had ever made in his life... all at less block time than he usually flew!
1.5 above anything is an immediate no from me... (unless we're talking a 1.5 pay increase!... then I'm completely on board!)
I have never been senior since moving to the left seat and I will do over 3 Bills this year... on about 600hrs block.
Work smarter, not harder.
08-15-2014, 08:08 AM
#646
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 7ER Capt
Posts: 461
The WS mafia, as some call it, is a senior group that bids good trips that are then placed on the swap board for straight pick up (or just PDd) and then their schedule is clear. Supposedly down to 0. Then they go back in and pick up good WS trips with low block and full credit. They want trips with the most CR and min TAFB and put themselves on short short call to get them. I've had 88As explain it to me, 88Bs are kind of coy about it when asked.
They WS until it becomes apparent that they should've GS'd but then they WS anyways. There is a lot of this.
A good day or two day trip comes up in open time you'll see it go very senior and very quickly. Ive talked to Captains who do it, their joke is if they get injured their spouse has been instructed to go back and pick up as much as possible before telling the company.
So yes, WSs are senior, in seniority order if they meet credit requirements. And guys will do it day after day back to back because their schedules are wide open. I think they, in times of no GS, can still score 100+ hours with little block. Are they playing with fire? Sure, at the end of the month they'll pick up less than ideal WS trips if short.
You do see that a lot but if you want to try it you better be senior.
__________
I don't think this WS system was in the calculation when they said the GS system is better than the 1.5x system because the former spreads things out between more pilots.
GS are not "spreading the wealth". Most go out on the weekends, you need to be senior to get weekends off. I have all weekends off and I bet I could get GS #4 before a junior guy working weekends ever gets #1. In my experience, GSs still are a senior thing. Want proof? Just say you want GS to be on a rolling 3 month look back instead of just within the month, bet you won't find senior takers on that one.
Besides, what happens when GS type trips are just picked up on WS by senior pilots? And is it it really spreading the wealth if someone junior in the meantime has PBS lines to 90 hours for basically straight pay while someone senior gets 100 hours on 40 hours of block?
To me it's always worth looking at 1.5x pay twice if we're trying to figure out how to increase pay without consideration to section 3.
But if we were to add 1.5x, I want to see a cap and the GS system to stay as is.
They WS until it becomes apparent that they should've GS'd but then they WS anyways. There is a lot of this.
A good day or two day trip comes up in open time you'll see it go very senior and very quickly. Ive talked to Captains who do it, their joke is if they get injured their spouse has been instructed to go back and pick up as much as possible before telling the company.
So yes, WSs are senior, in seniority order if they meet credit requirements. And guys will do it day after day back to back because their schedules are wide open. I think they, in times of no GS, can still score 100+ hours with little block. Are they playing with fire? Sure, at the end of the month they'll pick up less than ideal WS trips if short.
You do see that a lot but if you want to try it you better be senior.
__________
I don't think this WS system was in the calculation when they said the GS system is better than the 1.5x system because the former spreads things out between more pilots.
GS are not "spreading the wealth". Most go out on the weekends, you need to be senior to get weekends off. I have all weekends off and I bet I could get GS #4 before a junior guy working weekends ever gets #1. In my experience, GSs still are a senior thing. Want proof? Just say you want GS to be on a rolling 3 month look back instead of just within the month, bet you won't find senior takers on that one.
Besides, what happens when GS type trips are just picked up on WS by senior pilots? And is it it really spreading the wealth if someone junior in the meantime has PBS lines to 90 hours for basically straight pay while someone senior gets 100 hours on 40 hours of block?
To me it's always worth looking at 1.5x pay twice if we're trying to figure out how to increase pay without consideration to section 3.
But if we were to add 1.5x, I want to see a cap and the GS system to stay as is.
I'm very happy with the current system... rather than change it significantly, I'd recommend learning it first.
I'd tell you how I do it... but then I'd have to kill you.
08-15-2014, 08:32 AM
#647
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
The bold is spot on Herk. I perceive this to be a NB thing and not a WB thing, so I was trying to explain it but I've never done it so I cannot explain it very well I guess.
I don't care about what guys do with WS, that's the system and it's fine as is. What I am trying to do is talk about GS vs 1.5x system, the merger committee chairman explained to me that the GS system is more fair to all pilots then 1.5x which only favors senior pilots. Maybe that was true in 08, but is it true now with the way guys do the drop the whole schedule and WS flying? Because what if 1.5x actually did us better?
But then I think we still need the GS system or nothing gets covered in IROPS.
And then I worry about the guys who will hard fly to the limits, not crazy about that and it's why I want a block hour cap related to the ALV.
So that's why I say, 1.5x + GS + cap in C2015, or maybe? IDK, maybe that's pie in the sky but without a large hourly rate increase it seems like it'd be a decent pay bump. What about:
- 1.5x pay at ## hours of credit,
- You can WS until your block hours = ##, whatever credit you get for doing that good on you.
- GS system... no change.
But I see nothing wrong with dropping your schedule and WS, nada, nothing. Have at it. But I don't want to play that game at 40% seniority and 1.5 hours away from the crew room door IF I left right now.
08-15-2014, 08:35 AM
#648
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Like Carl, you apparently don't fully understand the system. I've been a very junior Capt for 10yrs and been maximizing the system very well... both via WS & GS.
I'm very happy with the current system... rather than change it significantly, I'd recommend learning it first.
I'd tell you how I do it... but then I'd have to kill you.
I'm very happy with the current system... rather than change it significantly, I'd recommend learning it first.
I'd tell you how I do it... but then I'd have to kill you.
08-15-2014, 09:06 AM
#649
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 7ER Capt
Posts: 461
So again, as an extremely junior line holder, I have zero desire to change anything. My advice... really learn the system that we have.
P.s. Just so you know, there is absolutely zero risk involved in what I do... (got to go now... I've already said too much!
).
08-15-2014, 09:40 AM
#650
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
FYI... I emailed my reps with input that I think Lee Moak should be recalled. I've had numerous exchanges with them in the past few hours and NONE of them see anything wrong with what he said. Houston we have a problem. Maybe these reps need to be recalled too!
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