Details on Delta TA
05-19-2015, 09:22 AM
#4401
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
If the pilots receive a TA by June 1, we'll know someone was lying about Section 3 having not been discussed yet.
Either that, or someone outside the NC was negotiating pay rates.
Either that, or someone outside the NC was negotiating pay rates.
05-19-2015, 10:13 AM
#4402
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,599
Maybe.....Special MEC meeting today and tomorrow. A week for the MEC to review the TA if that is what the meeting is about. Depends on what the MEC meeting is about I guess.
According to reps though, pay hasn't even been discussed so I'm saying we don't see a TA until mid June.
According to reps though, pay hasn't even been discussed so I'm saying we don't see a TA until mid June.
05-19-2015, 10:59 AM
#4403
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Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 260
I believe the company has some wants this round too. Anyone who thinks we are going to reach a deal that doesn't address some of their concerns is kidding themselves and is going to be disappointed.
I don't know any specifics of what they are looking for (neither do any of us at this point) but I do expect our share to be disproportionally higher than the company's, by a lot.
To borrow someone's analogy from a few days ago, I'm expecting ours to be 95% and the company's 5%. Technically you could call that a concession, but I'd still term it a win.
I don't know any specifics of what they are looking for (neither do any of us at this point) but I do expect our share to be disproportionally higher than the company's, by a lot.
To borrow someone's analogy from a few days ago, I'm expecting ours to be 95% and the company's 5%. Technically you could call that a concession, but I'd still term it a win.
05-19-2015, 06:01 PM
#4404
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Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
Actually according to the reps pay had not been discussed over 10 days ago. It's possible that since then they may have exchanged numbers. I have no idea what Purples comment is about. Pay is often the last section done and is very strait foward. There is no costing or manning issues to try and sort out which is time consuming and often involves subsets of negotiations to agree on costing. Pay rates are simple and you could exchange proposals every 5 minutes if you wanted. It took months to work out the costing on FAR 117 changes. Pay is instant.
05-19-2015, 06:46 PM
#4405
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2013
Posts: 40
While true, a super speedy deal with 9/9/4/4 (best case rumor) which is also rumored to be laced with embedded concessions at all levels including scope and PS reduction makes no sense in that model. In order for that to be the case, we would have to agree to the concessions first without seeing the pay. Its bad enough if we sell back our contract for pay rates, but to agree to the concessions first without even seeing the pay rates would just be unbelievable.
This would make sense if Negotiations consisted of a buffet table of concessions. If it's cost neutral contract, we simply create our own pay raise buy picking our concessions to tally up to a price/raise. Choose zero concession would equal zero pay raise. I guess in a sense negotiations would not be about getting what we want or what they want. Negotiations would simply be about the actual cost/savings to the comapany to put a Price/percentage on each item before putting it on the buffet bar. Once the buffet is complete. We, the pilots/alpa, choosing how to create our pay raise buy stepping up to the buffet bar. Seems to make sense with all the publications that talk about cost analysis. Then that way pay really does not have to be discussed. Thus, leaving it the last item, or better yet, the pay is more of a result than a particular negotiated item. Tally the total at the end, maybe ask for a couple points, who knows.
That being said, I don't know, but it is a good explanation!!
05-19-2015, 07:35 PM
#4406
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Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: Lowest Pay I Could Find
Posts: 1,044
Actually according to the reps pay had not been discussed over 10 days ago. It's possible that since then they may have exchanged numbers. I have no idea what Purples comment is about. Pay is often the last section done and is very strait foward. There is no costing or manning issues to try and sort out which is time consuming and often involves subsets of negotiations to agree on costing. Pay rates are simple and you could exchange proposals every 5 minutes if you wanted. It took months to work out the costing on FAR 117 changes. Pay is instant.
10 days to cut a deal on pay rates 7 months prior to the amendable date? You have got to get out of the fixed size of the pie mentality. The size of the pie IS what we are negotiating, and it is anything but fixed. After that, ALPA sets apportionment and the company cares a lot less about that. THE PIE IS AS BIG AS IT HAS BEEN IN 20 YEARS!
this one better be pretty good if we are moving that fast.
05-19-2015, 09:53 PM
#4407
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
There is a BOD meeting on June 25. I'm guessing RA would like to be able to announce at least having a T/A at that meeting.
He knows any T/A brought to the pilots is going to pass memory rat, so he's only got to have the MEC vote YES by then, not the entire pilot group.
I'll bet we see a T/A from the NC by mid June, if not sooner, followed by a week of MEC meetings for eye wash, much yelling and screaming about trading PS for a 'raise' more 76 seat RJ's and more productivity gives, then a 10-9 yes vote for the T/A by the BOD meeting.
I just hope I'm wrong about our MEC, for once.
Time value of Concessions and all that.
He knows any T/A brought to the pilots is going to pass memory rat, so he's only got to have the MEC vote YES by then, not the entire pilot group.
I'll bet we see a T/A from the NC by mid June, if not sooner, followed by a week of MEC meetings for eye wash, much yelling and screaming about trading PS for a 'raise' more 76 seat RJ's and more productivity gives, then a 10-9 yes vote for the T/A by the BOD meeting.
I just hope I'm wrong about our MEC, for once.
Time value of Concessions and all that.
Time value of concessions.
You could replace any word in a pitch with concessions, such as:
- a concession your hand is worth two pay raises in the bush.
- What pay raise are you willing to give up for that concession?
- Guaranteed concessions are better than at risk concessions.
- That's your Captains concession you're giving up... just saying.
05-20-2015, 05:17 AM
#4408
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 260
I both agree and disagree.
This one better be good. Absolutely!
But I don't understand the "if we are moving this fast," or the consternation by some that we might get a deal early.
Because I know how to operate a financial calculator and because I've seen too many groups harmed by holding out for too long (i.e. AMR in 2001), I am absolutely in favor of getting money in my pocket early.
I'm not suggesting that we accept an inferior deal in the interest of expediency. I am simply stating that the right deal early should be hoped for and welcomed, not derided.
This one better be good. Absolutely!
But I don't understand the "if we are moving this fast," or the consternation by some that we might get a deal early.
Because I know how to operate a financial calculator and because I've seen too many groups harmed by holding out for too long (i.e. AMR in 2001), I am absolutely in favor of getting money in my pocket early.
I'm not suggesting that we accept an inferior deal in the interest of expediency. I am simply stating that the right deal early should be hoped for and welcomed, not derided.
05-20-2015, 05:21 AM
#4409
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,599
I both agree and disagree.
This one better be good. Absolutely!
But I don't understand the "if we are moving this fast," or the consternation by some that we might get a deal early.
Because I know how to operate a financial calculator and because I've seen too many groups harmed by holding out for too long (i.e. AMR in 2001), I am absolutely in favor of getting money in my pocket early.
I'm not suggesting that we accept an inferior deal in the interest of expediency. I am simply stating that the right deal early should be hoped for and welcomed, not derided.
This one better be good. Absolutely!
But I don't understand the "if we are moving this fast," or the consternation by some that we might get a deal early.
Because I know how to operate a financial calculator and because I've seen too many groups harmed by holding out for too long (i.e. AMR in 2001), I am absolutely in favor of getting money in my pocket early.
I'm not suggesting that we accept an inferior deal in the interest of expediency. I am simply stating that the right deal early should be hoped for and welcomed, not derided.
05-20-2015, 05:30 AM
#4410
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
Why Is dalpa in such a rush? You can be darn sure the company would drag its feet if that would help it gain leverage.
Remember what a shoddy product C12 was after being so rushed. Why would we want to repeat that?
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