Details on Delta TA
#3671
Astounding really.
You are now going to take the customer base and constituency of DALPA, the ever harder working revenue generating line pilots, and divide the into winners and losers vis a vis our contract negotiations!
Holy schitt! It should be the goal that after reaching a TA that there are no winners and losers, only winners. Then you know you have a good contract agreement.
You know when you have an excellent one? When you can step back and say with a smile on your face that the TA "stands in it's own merits" much like was done in C2K.
But to come here on the eve of attaining our next agreement and categorize your customers as winners and losers is beyond arrogant.
Wake up renob!
The DPA got nearly enough cards for a vote. Does that not even register with you still? I have been an ALPA member, supporter and volunteer for going on 26 years. I followed intently during that challenge by the DPA , listened to their grievances, lots of them petty some of them significant, and carefully weighed the evidence.
My conclusion was that Dalpa was and is our best choice. That being said, it has been subverted by a group of individuals, whose motives that are self serving at best, to an extent that it compromises the goals and aims of the institution. There were appeals by Dalpa that they understood some of the criticisms and that they were going to be addressed. I, for one, believed that to be true.
Apparently not.
Your statement is perfect crystal clear proof of that. It is not functioning as a bottom up organization. It's the Cabal vs everyone else. My belief was that even though Dalpa is a far superior choice over DPA, there is lots of room for reform and change within the association. Most obviously is the need for a change in who is in some of the leadership and committee positions.
Here is the bottom line. If a screwed up leader like Caplinger can muster up a near miss like he did, the next one up is not going to make the same mistakes.
Kind if like Parker and his severely lacking plan at making a run at Delta. He learned from it and executed flawless at AMR. Take the combination of people like you Karnak who haven't learned and consider themselves politically entrenched and bullet proof. When another group that is organized, on message and exploits the issues where you all have made promises and failed, and add a respected and organized group of leaders, and not just is Dalpa done, ALPA will be as well.
#3672
If the "legal jargon" you mention includes the 3B4 "Me Too" bit that got us an unanticipated pay rate bump, then I don't see it as a serious problem.
There were certainly a couple of areas where Delta has chosen to interpret the contract in a way that wasn't the intent of the Negotiators (what constitutes "verification" in a sick event is the most glaring), but I view them as small issues that we can work around with common sense.
Good trough…or bad trough? I like where we are, and like my W2. I wouldn't trade places with any of my peers at any other airline. Would you?
Thanks for sticking to the issues. I appreciate it.
#3673
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
Astounding really.
You are now going to take the customer base and constituency of DALPA, the ever harder working revenue generating line pilots, and divide the into winners and losers vis a vis our contract negotiations!
Holy schitt! It should be the goal that after reaching a TA that there are no winners and losers, only winners. Then you know you have a good contract agreement.
You know when you have an excellent one? When you can step back and say with a smile on your face that the TA "stands in it's own merits" much like was done in C2K.
But to come here on the eve of attaining our next agreement and categorize your customers as winners and losers is beyond arrogant.
Wake up renob!
The DPA got nearly enough cards for a vote. Does that not even register with you still? I have been an ALPA member, supporter and volunteer for going on 26 years. I followed intently during that challenge by the DPA , listened to their grievances, lots of them petty some of them significant, and carefully weighed the evidence.
My conclusion was that Dalpa was and is our best choice. That being said, it has been subverted by a group of individuals, whose motives that are self serving at best, to an extent that it compromises the goals and aims of the institution. There were appeals by Dalpa that they understood some of the criticisms and that they were going to be addressed. I, for one, believed that to be true.
Apparently not.
Your statement is perfect crystal clear proof of that. It is not functioning as a bottom up organization. It's the Cabal vs everyone else. My belief was that even though Dalpa is a far superior choice over DPA, there is lots of room for reform and change within the association. Most obviously is the need for a change in who is in some of the leadership and committee positions.
Here is the bottom line. If a screwed up leader like Caplinger can muster up a near miss like he did, the next one up is not going to make the same mistakes.
Kind if like Parker and his severely lacking plan at making a run at Delta. He learned from it and executed flawless at AMR. Take the combination of people like you Karnak who haven't learned and consider themselves politically entrenched and bullet proof. When another group that is organized, on message and exploits the issues where you all have made promises and failed, and add a respected and organized group of leaders, and not just is Dalpa done, ALPA will be as well.
You are now going to take the customer base and constituency of DALPA, the ever harder working revenue generating line pilots, and divide the into winners and losers vis a vis our contract negotiations!
Holy schitt! It should be the goal that after reaching a TA that there are no winners and losers, only winners. Then you know you have a good contract agreement.
You know when you have an excellent one? When you can step back and say with a smile on your face that the TA "stands in it's own merits" much like was done in C2K.
But to come here on the eve of attaining our next agreement and categorize your customers as winners and losers is beyond arrogant.
Wake up renob!
The DPA got nearly enough cards for a vote. Does that not even register with you still? I have been an ALPA member, supporter and volunteer for going on 26 years. I followed intently during that challenge by the DPA , listened to their grievances, lots of them petty some of them significant, and carefully weighed the evidence.
My conclusion was that Dalpa was and is our best choice. That being said, it has been subverted by a group of individuals, whose motives that are self serving at best, to an extent that it compromises the goals and aims of the institution. There were appeals by Dalpa that they understood some of the criticisms and that they were going to be addressed. I, for one, believed that to be true.
Apparently not.
Your statement is perfect crystal clear proof of that. It is not functioning as a bottom up organization. It's the Cabal vs everyone else. My belief was that even though Dalpa is a far superior choice over DPA, there is lots of room for reform and change within the association. Most obviously is the need for a change in who is in some of the leadership and committee positions.
Here is the bottom line. If a screwed up leader like Caplinger can muster up a near miss like he did, the next one up is not going to make the same mistakes.
Kind if like Parker and his severely lacking plan at making a run at Delta. He learned from it and executed flawless at AMR. Take the combination of people like you Karnak who haven't learned and consider themselves politically entrenched and bullet proof. When another group that is organized, on message and exploits the issues where you all have made promises and failed, and add a respected and organized group of leaders, and not just is Dalpa done, ALPA will be as well.
Exactly. Astounding and scary. The extreme arrogance.
Either C2015 will stand on its own or ALPA is done. No sell job. No threats. Just the facts.
In this environment of record profits and an ever shrinking pilot pool, anything less is unacceptable.
Leverage is everywhere. One example being the collapse of the regional carriers. IMO RA will be the first mover. The larger regional jets will come to mainline. Delta has sold the DCI carriers as Delta and they are an embarrassment. The only solution is to bring this flying home to the mainline.
#3674
Why?
Prove it. I don't think they came close.
I agree. I think ALPA could use some changes and improvements. I share my thoughts with my reps, then trust them to weigh my criticisms against the other input they get, and act accordingly.
#3675
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
It seems like it's always 'circular logic' after every contract vote. When I hear guys complaining about the contract (ever since we got membership ratification in 1996) and ask them, "Well, why did you vote for it?"
Their answer is, "The MEC told me to!" (and they know a lot more about what's in it than I do...and they wouldn't lie to me...and I was too lazy to read it my self or go to a meeting and find out what's in it, and I can't afford to go on strike, and and and...)
When I then ask an MEC guy, "WHY did you guys vote YES to this POS??"
Their answer is, "Well...the membership didn't DEMAND more, so we felt this was the best we could do, absent a strike, and the membership didn't want a strike, and time value of money, and we'll get them next time, and and and..."
So we have a MEC who won't lead or push management for more, or mention the word Restoration, and a membership who won't demand restoration, and will vote YES for anything the MEC puts in front of them, because, they must know best, right?
It's a circle jerk.
Remember these classics?:
"There was no money left on the table."
"We'll never see those 3% raises."
"They'll start hiring immediately."
There's plenty of blame to go around, I blame both the membership, for being lazy and stupid, and I blame the MEC, for not getting them riled up or ever keeping account of what the Pilots gave to save the company in LOA 46 and 51 and the DB plan, or for ever even being able to utter the word; Restoration.
Their answer is, "The MEC told me to!" (and they know a lot more about what's in it than I do...and they wouldn't lie to me...and I was too lazy to read it my self or go to a meeting and find out what's in it, and I can't afford to go on strike, and and and...)
When I then ask an MEC guy, "WHY did you guys vote YES to this POS??"
Their answer is, "Well...the membership didn't DEMAND more, so we felt this was the best we could do, absent a strike, and the membership didn't want a strike, and time value of money, and we'll get them next time, and and and..."
So we have a MEC who won't lead or push management for more, or mention the word Restoration, and a membership who won't demand restoration, and will vote YES for anything the MEC puts in front of them, because, they must know best, right?
It's a circle jerk.
Remember these classics?:
"There was no money left on the table."
"We'll never see those 3% raises."
"They'll start hiring immediately."
There's plenty of blame to go around, I blame both the membership, for being lazy and stupid, and I blame the MEC, for not getting them riled up or ever keeping account of what the Pilots gave to save the company in LOA 46 and 51 and the DB plan, or for ever even being able to utter the word; Restoration.
#3676
Carl
#3677
I disagree. I think we are a group of professional skeptics who trust, but verify. As I've pointed out to Carl, the reps who urged us to vote No made their case. In my council, Steve and Ron listed their heartburn with the TA in clear, point-by-point fashion. The 3rd rep, Dan, was the least strident. He recommended voting Yes.
We're talking about guys like you doing anything to "win." Even if it means trashing our process.
Pretty sure he was talking about the trough that is the ALPA lifestyle of large salaries and large parties. It is apparently a trough that once experienced, you'll do anything to remain there.
I like my airline, but my contract is second tier.
Carl
#3678
You described members who were on the losing side of the vote as "losers." You went further to infer that we cried "process" because we couldn't accept being "losers."
As distasteful as it is, you're not alone. Many in the MEC administration share your views.
Carl
#3679
It seems like it's always 'circular logic' after every contract vote. When I hear guys complaining about the contract (ever since we got membership ratification in 1996) and ask them, "Well, why did you vote for it?"
Their answer is, "The MEC told me to!" (and they know a lot more about what's in it than I do...and they wouldn't lie to me...and I was too lazy to read it my self or go to a meeting and find out what's in it, and I can't afford to go on strike, and and and...)
When I then ask an MEC guy, "WHY did you guys vote YES to this POS??"
Their answer is, "Well...the membership didn't DEMAND more, so we felt this was the best we could do, absent a strike, and the membership didn't want a strike, and time value of money, and we'll get them next time, and and and..."
So we have a MEC who won't lead or push management for more, or mention the word Restoration, and a membership who won't demand restoration, and will vote YES for anything the MEC puts in front of them, because, they must know best, right?
It's a circle jerk.
Remember these classics?:
"There was no money left on the table."
"We'll never see those 3% raises."
"They'll start hiring immediately."
There's plenty of blame to go around, I blame both the membership, for being lazy and stupid, and I blame the MEC, for not getting them riled up or ever keeping account of what the Pilots gave to save the company in LOA 46 and 51 and the DB plan, or for ever even being able to utter the word; Restoration.
Their answer is, "The MEC told me to!" (and they know a lot more about what's in it than I do...and they wouldn't lie to me...and I was too lazy to read it my self or go to a meeting and find out what's in it, and I can't afford to go on strike, and and and...)
When I then ask an MEC guy, "WHY did you guys vote YES to this POS??"
Their answer is, "Well...the membership didn't DEMAND more, so we felt this was the best we could do, absent a strike, and the membership didn't want a strike, and time value of money, and we'll get them next time, and and and..."
So we have a MEC who won't lead or push management for more, or mention the word Restoration, and a membership who won't demand restoration, and will vote YES for anything the MEC puts in front of them, because, they must know best, right?
It's a circle jerk.
Remember these classics?:
"There was no money left on the table."
"We'll never see those 3% raises."
"They'll start hiring immediately."
There's plenty of blame to go around, I blame both the membership, for being lazy and stupid, and I blame the MEC, for not getting them riled up or ever keeping account of what the Pilots gave to save the company in LOA 46 and 51 and the DB plan, or for ever even being able to utter the word; Restoration.
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