Details on Delta TA
04-06-2015, 01:06 PM
#3541
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Again, I didn't get my data from you, I got my data from the DALPA contract comparison.
Carl
04-06-2015, 01:19 PM
#3542
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Position: 747-400 Captain
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Delta pilots don't lead the industry in one single section of the contract. Not one. Source: DALPA contract comparison.
Carl
04-06-2015, 01:41 PM
#3543
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
two answers
in this thread, no thats impossible. carl said it would be zero because we cant cost that and that ra would tell the shareholders to expect no profits
in the real world, yes i expect we will see the ptix in the 6-7 range this year and next that will translate to about a 20 percent ps payment and alpo better not give that away to fund other improvements
more than happy to move a big chunk into hard pay but that can only happen separately and on top of our next contract and better not be hidden, big no vote and dpa card going in if it gets brushed under the rug like c2012
i dont like leaving such a big piece of my income at the hands of good or bad management decisions yes i know its in their hands already to a large extent, bk laws aint what they used to be and without a pension to steal ill take as much money in my own name as soon as possible as often as possible.
i dont trust big ps longterm things cuz things go bad, my pension, furlough, SLI and merger "targeting" have proved that
in this thread, no thats impossible. carl said it would be zero because we cant cost that and that ra would tell the shareholders to expect no profits
in the real world, yes i expect we will see the ptix in the 6-7 range this year and next that will translate to about a 20 percent ps payment and alpo better not give that away to fund other improvements
more than happy to move a big chunk into hard pay but that can only happen separately and on top of our next contract and better not be hidden, big no vote and dpa card going in if it gets brushed under the rug like c2012
i dont like leaving such a big piece of my income at the hands of good or bad management decisions yes i know its in their hands already to a large extent, bk laws aint what they used to be and without a pension to steal ill take as much money in my own name as soon as possible as often as possible.
i dont trust big ps longterm things cuz things go bad, my pension, furlough, SLI and merger "targeting" have proved that
Of course I or RA wouldn't say that. The only correct answer to that question would be: "There's no way to determine next year's profit sharing cost because we don't know what the profit will be...or if they'll be one."
It would be a similar answer if a shareholder demanded to know what next year's fuel costs will be. Or next year's maintenance costs.
It would be a similar answer if a shareholder demanded to know what next year's fuel costs will be. Or next year's maintenance costs.
04-07-2015, 06:42 AM
#3544
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Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 335
Doesn't that make our profit sharing payout at risk and variable since "there's no way to determine next year's profit sharing cost because we don't know what the profit will be...or if they'll be one."
04-07-2015, 08:10 AM
#3545
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
"At Risk" is a DALPA sponsored term designed to diminish profit sharing in the eyes of pilots so pilots won't miss it when DALPA gives part of it up to self fund pay rate increases.
Carl
04-08-2015, 03:14 AM
#3546
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Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,431
You and Karnak can use whatever you like. The problem you have is showing everyone your data rather than your opinions. I'm using the DALPA contract comparison while you, Karnak and the others seem to be running from it.
Delta pilots don't lead the industry in one single section of the contract. Not one. Source: DALPA contract comparison.
Carl
Delta pilots don't lead the industry in one single section of the contract. Not one. Source: DALPA contract comparison.
Carl
I'll take our contract right now before any other group's. It only gets better going forward.
04-08-2015, 04:29 AM
#3547
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,184
Nick Faldo once famously won a British Open with 18 consecutive pars on the last day of the tournament. Using your logic (which I dispute) the win must not have meant much because "He didn't have the best score on any of the holes, not one."
I'll take our contract right now before any other group's. It only gets better going forward.
I'll take our contract right now before any other group's. It only gets better going forward.
04-08-2015, 01:39 PM
#3548
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 147
OK, lets say that Spackle has won the issue on PS. PS is variable compensation, but only to the upside since there is no "at risk" element. LOL! Hang with me here... if PS was to go down due to a drop off in profitability... I know, I know, it never will, the pilots will be good with that. Certainly good enough that they would never chose to monetize at a higher rate. Therefore we elect to retain full current exposure to PS.
Further, RA will never account for future risk exposure to PS because it cannot be calculated. Even if it was possible, the NMB would tell him he is full of it and would slap him down. He will just have to the roll the dice and hope it all works out.
So, what is the most we will get from him in this situation, assuming all else remains the same and we've reduced the money making sections to annual pay rate increases.? I know, I know, RA does not have a maximum because it is not he who decides our max compensation, it is us (according to Spackler). Lets make it easy and assume a 3 year contract. I think it would be helpful if we further assume two scenarios: 1) a contract delivered at the amenable date, and 2) contract delivered at some point beyond the amenable date. In scenario 2, lets include a date along with the pay raises expected.
So this exercise is not about what we want, I want quite a bit (I know, I know, what we get is defined by what we want because it is us that determines the max.) So lets assume that we all want $10,000 per hour. This exercise is about what is doable, and specifically doable within a defined timeframe and within historical processes.
I'll start.
1) on time: 8, 3, 3
He will meet AA's rates plus 1% and then maintain that margin in the out years. His thinking (Spackler's as well) is that PS is variable but certainly not at risk (our risk), and our pay margin in reality will be 17% with PS. I know, I know, we just have to say stuff it and those rates will climb because he cannot cap them. He will think a 17% margin is fair and he'll guess that the NMB will agree. I know, I know, the NMB will refuse to count PS. It isn't the 17% margin that he thinks the NMB will sign off on, it is the 1% margin.
2) 11, 3, 3 delivered at amendable date plus 18 months. After watching PS decline slightly in 2015, the early look at 2016 PS shows a further decline. RA is comfortable raising the stakes a bit with a reduced PS liability. The margin is now 4%. The NMB has no heartburn with industry standard plus 4%. Delta pilots are eager to get the meter running again.
Ok, let the Poo fly! But, lets not forget to play. Don't forget your projections!
Further, RA will never account for future risk exposure to PS because it cannot be calculated. Even if it was possible, the NMB would tell him he is full of it and would slap him down. He will just have to the roll the dice and hope it all works out.
So, what is the most we will get from him in this situation, assuming all else remains the same and we've reduced the money making sections to annual pay rate increases.? I know, I know, RA does not have a maximum because it is not he who decides our max compensation, it is us (according to Spackler). Lets make it easy and assume a 3 year contract. I think it would be helpful if we further assume two scenarios: 1) a contract delivered at the amenable date, and 2) contract delivered at some point beyond the amenable date. In scenario 2, lets include a date along with the pay raises expected.
So this exercise is not about what we want, I want quite a bit (I know, I know, what we get is defined by what we want because it is us that determines the max.) So lets assume that we all want $10,000 per hour. This exercise is about what is doable, and specifically doable within a defined timeframe and within historical processes.
I'll start.
1) on time: 8, 3, 3
He will meet AA's rates plus 1% and then maintain that margin in the out years. His thinking (Spackler's as well) is that PS is variable but certainly not at risk (our risk), and our pay margin in reality will be 17% with PS. I know, I know, we just have to say stuff it and those rates will climb because he cannot cap them. He will think a 17% margin is fair and he'll guess that the NMB will agree. I know, I know, the NMB will refuse to count PS. It isn't the 17% margin that he thinks the NMB will sign off on, it is the 1% margin.
2) 11, 3, 3 delivered at amendable date plus 18 months. After watching PS decline slightly in 2015, the early look at 2016 PS shows a further decline. RA is comfortable raising the stakes a bit with a reduced PS liability. The margin is now 4%. The NMB has no heartburn with industry standard plus 4%. Delta pilots are eager to get the meter running again.
Ok, let the Poo fly! But, lets not forget to play. Don't forget your projections!
04-08-2015, 03:20 PM
#3550
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
OK, lets say that Spackle has won the issue on PS. PS is variable compensation, but only to the upside since there is no "at risk" element. LOL! Hang with me here... if PS was to go down due to a drop off in profitability... I know, I know, it never will, the pilots will be good with that. Certainly good enough that they would never chose to monetize at a higher rate. Therefore we elect to retain full current exposure to PS.
Further, RA will never account for future risk exposure to PS because it cannot be calculated. Even if it was possible, the NMB would tell him he is full of it and would slap him down. He will just have to the roll the dice and hope it all works out.
So, what is the most we will get from him in this situation, assuming all else remains the same and we've reduced the money making sections to annual pay rate increases.? I know, I know, RA does not have a maximum because it is not he who decides our max compensation, it is us (according to Spackler). Lets make it easy and assume a 3 year contract. I think it would be helpful if we further assume two scenarios: 1) a contract delivered at the amenable date, and 2) contract delivered at some point beyond the amenable date. In scenario 2, lets include a date along with the pay raises expected.
So this exercise is not about what we want, I want quite a bit (I know, I know, what we get is defined by what we want because it is us that determines the max.) So lets assume that we all want $10,000 per hour. This exercise is about what is doable, and specifically doable within a defined timeframe and within historical processes.
I'll start.
1) on time: 8, 3, 3
He will meet AA's rates plus 1% and then maintain that margin in the out years. His thinking (Spackler's as well) is that PS is variable but certainly not at risk (our risk), and our pay margin in reality will be 17% with PS. I know, I know, we just have to say stuff it and those rates will climb because he cannot cap them. He will think a 17% margin is fair and he'll guess that the NMB will agree. I know, I know, the NMB will refuse to count PS. It isn't the 17% margin that he thinks the NMB will sign off on, it is the 1% margin.
2) 11, 3, 3 delivered at amendable date plus 18 months. After watching PS decline slightly in 2015, the early look at 2016 PS shows a further decline. RA is comfortable raising the stakes a bit with a reduced PS liability. The margin is now 4%. The NMB has no heartburn with industry standard plus 4%. Delta pilots are eager to get the meter running again.
Ok, let the Poo fly! But, lets not forget to play. Don't forget your projections!
Further, RA will never account for future risk exposure to PS because it cannot be calculated. Even if it was possible, the NMB would tell him he is full of it and would slap him down. He will just have to the roll the dice and hope it all works out.
So, what is the most we will get from him in this situation, assuming all else remains the same and we've reduced the money making sections to annual pay rate increases.? I know, I know, RA does not have a maximum because it is not he who decides our max compensation, it is us (according to Spackler). Lets make it easy and assume a 3 year contract. I think it would be helpful if we further assume two scenarios: 1) a contract delivered at the amenable date, and 2) contract delivered at some point beyond the amenable date. In scenario 2, lets include a date along with the pay raises expected.
So this exercise is not about what we want, I want quite a bit (I know, I know, what we get is defined by what we want because it is us that determines the max.) So lets assume that we all want $10,000 per hour. This exercise is about what is doable, and specifically doable within a defined timeframe and within historical processes.
I'll start.
1) on time: 8, 3, 3
He will meet AA's rates plus 1% and then maintain that margin in the out years. His thinking (Spackler's as well) is that PS is variable but certainly not at risk (our risk), and our pay margin in reality will be 17% with PS. I know, I know, we just have to say stuff it and those rates will climb because he cannot cap them. He will think a 17% margin is fair and he'll guess that the NMB will agree. I know, I know, the NMB will refuse to count PS. It isn't the 17% margin that he thinks the NMB will sign off on, it is the 1% margin.
2) 11, 3, 3 delivered at amendable date plus 18 months. After watching PS decline slightly in 2015, the early look at 2016 PS shows a further decline. RA is comfortable raising the stakes a bit with a reduced PS liability. The margin is now 4%. The NMB has no heartburn with industry standard plus 4%. Delta pilots are eager to get the meter running again.
Ok, let the Poo fly! But, lets not forget to play. Don't forget your projections!
Your numbers are a joke. Even the always Yes voters would reject anything less than 16% 1/1/16.
We are not going to have rates lower than American 1/1/16. SWA and FedEx will exceed American and UAL opens next year.
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