Originally Posted by BenderRodriguez

I still see us out in front though on the back of the napkin math.

Originally Posted by BenderRodriguez

We get PS, they don't. Our hourly rates can stand to come up of course, but with PS we are better compensated. Is that not true?

Originally Posted by DALMD88FO

Ok I get it now. You want to add PS to our rates for costing purposes, but not their B funding when it is pointed out to you that the indeed get DC funding. How about we just compare pay rates to pay rates and balance that with the economic health of each company.

Originally Posted by BenderRodriguez

Why don't you throttle back a little and unload the guns? If you just want to throw monkey **** at each other, go over to the chit chat forum. That place is great for that kind of idiocy.

Originally Posted by BenderRodriguez

Why don't you throttle back a little and unload the guns? If you just want to throw monkey **** at each other, go over to the chit chat forum. That place is great for that kind of idiocy. If you want to discuss this like an adult, I am all ears.

Edit: I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on your last post. Let's keep the two things separate. Pay: Our rates versus their rates. Theirs are higher. How does profit sharing factor in? Retirement: I have no clue what their percentages of DB and B fund are. How does that compare to our 15% 401k contribution.

Originally Posted by gzsg

MD has said it over and over. "We hear you and you don't want to reduce or trade profit sharing".

The survey has spoken.

Maybe 2018.

Originally Posted by DALMD88FO

Tell you the truth, I have no idea what a chitchat forum is. How do you get that I'm throwing monkey poo at you. As for the adult comment..you're just too funny. The only opinion that counts appears to be your own. My opinion is that we leave the PS alone and it doesn't need to be added to the top of a nifty little chart showing our payrate + profit sharing on top. You can't count on PS so you can't quantify it. I'm done with the subject.

Originally Posted by SharpestTool

Denny,

No it wasn't compensation for past sacrifices. It was the best we could do for future compensation based on a very weak hand we were dealt post-bankruptcy. We would've opted for fixed pay increases if we would have had the negotiating leverage.

I certainly don't view it as compensation for past sacrifices but, as you said, it is tied to past sacrifices because we wouldn't have it without them.

I understand you value the insurance as a "bonus". Nothing wrong with that. What that insurance is worth is the question. The value changes with the business cycle. Are you willing to pay the premium when risk changes? That is the question.

Insurance? I do not look at it as insurance. An executive gets a bonus (extra compensation in the form of money or stock options) when s/he performs well. This can be measured a number of ways one of which is company profitability. This is our bonus. I want pay rates that reflect what I feel I'm worth. If a profit sharing check does not appear for the year, I will not be disappointed.

Profit sharing is a tool in which its value changes in the business cycle. We should look to monetize when its value is high and likely to be lower in the future. We can initiate it when its value is low and likely to increase in the future. It isn't good or bad. I'm saying I think it is a good time to capture value and reduce risk.

Originally Posted by SharpestTool

We will never see the details of our opener, nor should we.

Originally Posted by SharpestTool

Management does not forward the details of opening position to the shareholders, and for good reason.

Originally Posted by SharpestTool

It would quite frankly **** them off. Hmm, the same reason DALPA doesn't tell us the details of management's opener.

Originally Posted by SharpestTool

We can get wrapped around the axle all we want on this, but it is the way it is going to be and no responsible bargaining agent is going to bend on the issue.

Originally Posted by SharpestTool

Suffice to say, if we achieved our opening position the pilots would be wildly enthusiastic and onboard. If management achieved their opener, our stockholders would be besides themselves with glee. Lets not waste time here.

Originally Posted by BenderRodriguez

So why all the angst about it?

Originally Posted by Flamer

Why do you post here? You are not a Delta pilot....which is either true, or an incredible insult. Take your pick.

Originally Posted by SharpestTool

Profit sharing. Profit sharing is at risk compensation. Profit sharing always originates from a weak bargaining position and represents a hedge. Ours originated post-bankruptcy. As it was initially envisioned it was a bargain for management and a hedge for us against runaway profitability. Initially it was a liability to us in comparison to a fixed and known pay increase, and an asset to the company. Success has changed that equation around and currently it is a huge asset to us and a liability for the company. The key point here is that there is a cycle where profit sharing can work for us or against us. It isn't a linear process. The time to capture value (de-risk) from profit sharing is when it most hurts the company to maintain it. The time to capture value is at or nearing the peak of the business cycle. Too many see no risk in profit sharing at this point. History does not support that view. We are closer to the end of the business cycle than the beginning.

So, monetizing profit sharing is a smart hedge play. This time hedging against a drop off in profitability. What percentage and for how much? Again, I do not like risk. If it were just me, I would trade all of it for a 16% increase to our book pay rates. But, I realize others have a higher appetite for risk than I do. I would be open to monetize 50% and retain the other half as a further upside hedge. I think we have an excellent case to sell it back to the company at last year's going rate or our projected rate for this year, whichever is greater. So lets say for know 8% of our current pay rates.

Bottom line: profit sharing entails risk and anyone who doesn't account for that is selling sunshine.