Details on Delta TA
10-07-2014, 02:29 PM
#2741
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 7ER Capt
Posts: 461
If you were a Southwest pilot, how would you change what you've written here?
No "great changes" over the years, if you define those as changes akin to C2K.
No big givebacks during the "dark years", and certainly no trip to bankruptcy.
Is there any chance the two are related? If the pilots who found themselves ahead of us during and after the "dark years" got there with small, methodical increases and improvements, would it be better to wish for a similar trajectory instead of "great changes"?
No "great changes" over the years, if you define those as changes akin to C2K.
No big givebacks during the "dark years", and certainly no trip to bankruptcy.
Is there any chance the two are related? If the pilots who found themselves ahead of us during and after the "dark years" got there with small, methodical increases and improvements, would it be better to wish for a similar trajectory instead of "great changes"?
We did in fact take a 42ish % haircut plus a large retirement hit... small, methodical increases/improvements are not going to begin to "restore" our losses.
But the sun will more than likely rise tomorrow... so I got that going for me!
10-07-2014, 05:15 PM
#2742
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 852
Um, I'm not a southwest pilot.
We did in fact take a 42ish % haircut plus a large retirement hit... small, methodical increases/improvements are not going to begin to "restore" our losses.
But the sun will more than likely rise tomorrow... so I got that going for me!
We did in fact take a 42ish % haircut plus a large retirement hit... small, methodical increases/improvements are not going to begin to "restore" our losses.
But the sun will more than likely rise tomorrow... so I got that going for me!
But those "dark years" didn't impact those who chose a path of smaller, methodical improvements, in contrast to the big leap.
I'm providing some history. Here's what you posted:
If the numbers in history are relevant, then how those numbers came to be is also relevant.
10-07-2014, 06:41 PM
#2743
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 757/767
Posts: 588
I am sure you're not dumb... just a bit amusing to read such strong opinions about our company & contract from some one who has only been on the property for what... 7 months?
During my first year, I was asking a lot more questions than giving opinions/answers ymmv.
While some of the old heads on here don't believe that history is relevant, I do.
In my 26yrs, we have gone from a profession that provided great money & qol to only pretty good... that is called a negative trend vector. (i.e., great buying power at 75hrs, 7wks vacation, touching trips, power move-ups, etc.) In fact, the top of the ziggurat was 7wks vacay, 3 on 4 off, monday or tuesday, with 60% fae! (My first year, I turned 6dys vacay into 3 weeks off with pay!)
While I fully recognize those days are gone forever, I don't think it is too much to expect a date-of-signing pay rate from a contract that existed 12 years in the past! (Not even including inflation.) And without significant concessions (I think we gave plenty during the dark years.)
Unfortunately, I am in the minority. During C2012, I repeatedly asked my newish hire FO's why they were voting yes for 3% raises in light of our bankruptcy devastation. (And after only 2 months of section 6 negotiations.) They pretty much all answered "it was more money than they had ever made". I.e., they had no clue what this profession once was.
I have stopped believing in/hoping for any great changes in our contract... maybe I'll be proven wrong.
And no... I don't consider, when I look around a pilot lounge and realize that one in three were not satisfied with the contract, that the vote was a "landslide".
P.s. This is not a union problem. You get the contract for which you vote.
During my first year, I was asking a lot more questions than giving opinions/answers ymmv.
While some of the old heads on here don't believe that history is relevant, I do.
In my 26yrs, we have gone from a profession that provided great money & qol to only pretty good... that is called a negative trend vector. (i.e., great buying power at 75hrs, 7wks vacation, touching trips, power move-ups, etc.) In fact, the top of the ziggurat was 7wks vacay, 3 on 4 off, monday or tuesday, with 60% fae! (My first year, I turned 6dys vacay into 3 weeks off with pay!)
While I fully recognize those days are gone forever, I don't think it is too much to expect a date-of-signing pay rate from a contract that existed 12 years in the past! (Not even including inflation.) And without significant concessions (I think we gave plenty during the dark years.)
Unfortunately, I am in the minority. During C2012, I repeatedly asked my newish hire FO's why they were voting yes for 3% raises in light of our bankruptcy devastation. (And after only 2 months of section 6 negotiations.) They pretty much all answered "it was more money than they had ever made". I.e., they had no clue what this profession once was.
I have stopped believing in/hoping for any great changes in our contract... maybe I'll be proven wrong.
And no... I don't consider, when I look around a pilot lounge and realize that one in three were not satisfied with the contract, that the vote was a "landslide".
P.s. This is not a union problem. You get the contract for which you vote.
10-07-2014, 08:04 PM
#2746
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
During the 1990's, we had a concessionary contract (POS96). I don't know what the pay cut percentage was (maybe a single digit percentage) but it was practically nothing compared to the 42% cumulative cut we took in "the dark years." I don't remember what the percentage pay increase was with C2K either, but it was certainly not a "big leap." All C2K really did was to correct us back on track to where we were prior to POS96. And since POS96 wasn't that big of a pay cut, C2K couldn't have been that big of an increase either.
"Small, methodical increases" will not restore us. That's the problem you create when you agree to 42% pay cuts. The pilot groups who have done well with "small, methodical" have done well because they didn't take gigantic pay cuts like we did. Different strategy that's not at all appropriate for our situation.
10-07-2014, 08:54 PM
#2747
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,903
Ok. I thought you'd get the point. There was a big leap with C2K. That leap was erased during the era you called the "dark years".
But those "dark years" didn't impact those who chose a path of smaller, methodical improvements, in contrast to the big leap.
I'm providing some history. Here's what you posted:
If the numbers in history are relevant, then how those numbers came to be is also relevant.
But those "dark years" didn't impact those who chose a path of smaller, methodical improvements, in contrast to the big leap.
I'm providing some history. Here's what you posted:
If the numbers in history are relevant, then how those numbers came to be is also relevant.
Actually, if you wrench the numbers a bit, C2000 wasn't a "big leap". Most of the increase was to regain buying power that had been on a steady decline since 1984.
Most of what C2000 did was provide "restoration".
Nu
10-08-2014, 03:24 AM
#2749
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
Exactly correct! Now, can we talk about inflation?
What were our two 3% "riases" in real terms, vs. inflation over the same two years?
You cannot restore anything by only making 'small incremental steps' when you account for inflation over the same time period.
What does a car, or a house, or a year of instate college cost today, vs. 1998?
We are today making 1998 pay rates, un-adjusted for inflation!
10-08-2014, 04:14 AM
#2750
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 7ER Capt
Posts: 461
Actually, I was hoping you would get the point...
"Small incremental changes/improvements will not even begin to restore our contract's buying power... not ever".
I do agree if we had 5% increases every year for my last 26yrs, we would be in great shape... but we did not.
"Small incremental changes/improvements will not even begin to restore our contract's buying power... not ever".
I do agree if we had 5% increases every year for my last 26yrs, we would be in great shape... but we did not.
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