Details on Delta TA
#2732
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 7ER Capt
Posts: 461
I am sure you're not dumb... just a bit amusing to read such strong opinions about our company & contract from some one who has only been on the property for what... 7 months?
During my first year, I was asking a lot more questions than giving opinions/answers ymmv.
While some of the old heads on here don't believe that history is relevant, I do.
In my 26yrs, we have gone from a profession that provided great money & qol to only pretty good... that is called a negative trend vector. (i.e., great buying power at 75hrs, 7wks vacation, touching trips, power move-ups, etc.) In fact, the top of the ziggurat was 7wks vacay, 3 on 4 off, monday or tuesday, with 60% fae! (My first year, I turned 6dys vacay into 3 weeks off with pay!)
While I fully recognize those days are gone forever, I don't think it is too much to expect a date-of-signing pay rate from a contract that existed 12 years in the past! (Not even including inflation.) And without significant concessions (I think we gave plenty during the dark years.)
Unfortunately, I am in the minority. During C2012, I repeatedly asked my newish hire FO's why they were voting yes for 3% raises in light of our bankruptcy devastation. (And after only 2 months of section 6 negotiations.) They pretty much all answered "it was more money than they had ever made". I.e., they had no clue what this profession once was.
I have stopped believing in/hoping for any great changes in our contract... maybe I'll be proven wrong.
And no... I don't consider, when I look around a pilot lounge and realize that one in three were not satisfied with the contract, that the vote was a "landslide".
P.s. This is not a union problem. You get the contract for which you vote.
#2733
While I fully recognize those days are gone forever, I don't think it is too much to expect a date-of-signing pay rate from a contract that existed 12 years in the past! (Not even including inflation.) And without significant concessions (I think we gave plenty during the dark years.)
…
I have stopped believing in/hoping for any great changes in our contract... maybe I'll be proven wrong.
…
I have stopped believing in/hoping for any great changes in our contract... maybe I'll be proven wrong.
No "great changes" over the years, if you define those as changes akin to C2K.
No big givebacks during the "dark years", and certainly no trip to bankruptcy.
Is there any chance the two are related? If the pilots who found themselves ahead of us during and after the "dark years" got there with small, methodical increases and improvements, would it be better to wish for a similar trajectory instead of "great changes"?
#2734
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,991
That is my point. I see virtually nothing posted by Drank or Carl as balanced or productive or building unity. Anything that slams ALPA they go "atta boy" or are strangely silent if the information posted is dead wrong. Here is my other problem: This is the C2015 thread: is continually disparaging C2012 and our reps really productive? If we really want significant improvements on this contract we need unity. We are close to openers. ALPA will represent us. The first and most basic step is a 100% survey completion rate and everyone needs to say something similar to this: "I expect significant improvements in this contract and I don't expect to give up squat." Add your own specifics or pet peeves. Otherwise, as a realist I have to put myself in the negotiators shoes. How do I pretend to have any power if my constituency won't even take the time to fill out a survey?
OldFlyGuy,
Very interesting post. Perhaps Carl and Purple view their posts as "balancing" the posters that they consider "kool-aid" drinkers.
They are allowed to post opinions just as are all posters who respect the website terms of service.
I would suggest the best way to counter a post you disagree with is a rational fact filled response devoid of personal attacks. While the opinions on here vary greatly, I am confident the average DAL Pilot is smart enough to sort through the chaff and pick out the important stuff.
What specifically would you suggest?
Scoop
PS - I agree with you 100% on the importance of everyone completing a survey.
#2737
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
I think you both will be right.
I doubt there was anything close to any kind of a universal mandate for anything concessionary, anywhere in the contract, arising from the will of the pilot group. I think we very clearly did not lobby for or ask for concessions, regardless of the perceived value of their "bargaining credit".
However the survey was more than broad enough, with tons of Sophie's Choices sprinkled throughout, that the case can and will be made, after the fact of course, that we supposedly said we'd trade X for Y if it came down to it.
There was even a shockingly disturbing line of thinking in the recent C44 "Roar". It was so disgusting I'm not even going to repeat the sheer filth of its reasoning. Its one I still think (hope) won't (likely) manifest in C2015, but the virus is out there hoping to find a willing host for the next round and its up to us to resist it with extreme predjudice.
I think its likely there will be some form of CDO's in any TA we see, but that isn't a definate, and its not necessarilly "concessionary" although it very well could be. There are other things far more likely though.
Like: reduced profit sharing, JV "forgiveness" or "monetization", longer freezes or a redefining of when an existing freeze length starts, block time at wheel spin up (even if coupled with door pay would be incredibly concessionary) and other odds and ends little work rule give aways and possibly even scope relief.
When we see TA concessions, and its highly likely we will, we will be told it was our will, and technically one will be able to point to the somewhat convoluted survey and say it was indirectly asked for, even though it never directly was.
I doubt there was anything close to any kind of a universal mandate for anything concessionary, anywhere in the contract, arising from the will of the pilot group. I think we very clearly did not lobby for or ask for concessions, regardless of the perceived value of their "bargaining credit".
However the survey was more than broad enough, with tons of Sophie's Choices sprinkled throughout, that the case can and will be made, after the fact of course, that we supposedly said we'd trade X for Y if it came down to it.
There was even a shockingly disturbing line of thinking in the recent C44 "Roar". It was so disgusting I'm not even going to repeat the sheer filth of its reasoning. Its one I still think (hope) won't (likely) manifest in C2015, but the virus is out there hoping to find a willing host for the next round and its up to us to resist it with extreme predjudice.
I think its likely there will be some form of CDO's in any TA we see, but that isn't a definate, and its not necessarilly "concessionary" although it very well could be. There are other things far more likely though.
Like: reduced profit sharing, JV "forgiveness" or "monetization", longer freezes or a redefining of when an existing freeze length starts, block time at wheel spin up (even if coupled with door pay would be incredibly concessionary) and other odds and ends little work rule give aways and possibly even scope relief.
When we see TA concessions, and its highly likely we will, we will be told it was our will, and technically one will be able to point to the somewhat convoluted survey and say it was indirectly asked for, even though it never directly was.
#2738
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
#2740
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
Sadly the admin insiders King fired are all still calling 100% of the shots. They simply don't know how to negotiate without making concessions.
I filled out the survey, but it matters not. These guys will do whatever they want.
The perfect example is trading profit sharing. 98% of our pilots (DPA survey) want to keep profit sharing as it is or increase it. 92% do not want to trade it for hourly increases like we did in C2012. The insiders will disregard the survey and reduce profit sharing. RA is the MEC chairman.
We have no leadership. No goals.
They will simply craft more jam down theatening talking points to get the yes votes.
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