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Timbo's post is inspiring for us old school trade union guys.
And then its depressing.

We have elected a group of guys who don't believe in "labor risk".
We have constructive engagement. That is our policy.
We must, at all times, be reasonable and cooperative. Lest we be "parked".

Like it or not, the Moak followers are firmly in charge.
There will be no demands for "restoration" and certainly no beating of drums.
That's not the way we do things now.

Besides, everyone knows our contracts are "mature" and any negotiating will only be "on the margins".

EdGrimley

In that vein, I hope for the sake of our industry with a lost decade that just keeps going, we can get back to fundamentals taught by Dave Behncke. Principles long since forgot by those now in charge. I like what Heide Oberndorf stands for. Her message is always on point to get the profession back on track instead of the Lee Moak way...smoking stoggies with his management friends conducting unconstructive engagment.

It's funny to watch the Moak disciples get anxious and take pot shots but I think Heidi gets it. I also like the fact she is one of the few long time ALPA people willing to call out Moak on how he is hurting our position/profession.

One other thing, like it or not, somebody like her would get more attention and have more sway with the folks in Washington and the media because she is a woman. I say we use every advantage we can find. A4A certainly does.



"Unfortunately, after decades of failing to learn the lessons Behncke and others clearly taught us; and after repeatedly failing to beat the ATA (renamed Airlines for America/A4A in 2011) at their game, ALPA‘s current leadership has decided that if you can’t beat ‘em, JOIN EM! Our current “union leadership” has climbed straight into bed with the A4A and is trying to tell us that this is the true path of union leadership in the modern age – walking hand in hand with management.

I fundamentally disagree with this concept. Behncke stood strong then, and we can now. The only way we can survive and stop the outsourcing, revenue sharing, “provisioning” plans and whipsawing, is to draw a line in the sand and say NO MORE."

- Heide Oberndorf

Alan Shore

While I share your frustration on many levels, I do not recall LM having mentioned this. Refresh my memory, please?

Timbo

Richard said, "Labor Risk has been taken off the table..."

Nobody at DALPA refuted that.

Lee, in one often quoted interview from a couple weeks ago, essentially said the same thing, when he said our contracts were mature and that we would only be working on the 'margins' and arguing over $2.00 vs. $2.50.

I will now spend a couple hours trying to find it for you...

No, I won't.

It was posted here many times and on dalpilot.chitchat, so I know you read it. There was much outcry here and someone said he was 'misquoted'.

OK, so where's his retraction/correction?

Alan Shore

Agreed.

Or something like that. Whether you or I take that to mean something similar to what RA said, the fact remains that LM has said nothing about labor risk, one way or the other, so let's please not put words in his mouth. We all have enough to be frustrated with already without adding imaginary or perceived fuel to the fire.

Timbo

Found it, the search box top right worked!

Pilot Contract Talks in 2015 to Come Amid Robust Airline Profits

By Justin Bachman August 13, 2014
With U.S. airlines awash in cash these days, one of the big questions in the industry has become how much of that wealth will pilots seek next year when contracts at several carriers come up for renegotiation.



Contracts at four large airlines—Delta Air Lines (DAL), Hawaiian (HA), Spirit (SAVE), and Jazz Aviation, a regional operator for Air Canada—are up for talks in 2015, covering nearly 15,000 pilots represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, the largest pilots union in North America. JetBlue Airways’ (JBLU) 2,500 pilots are also hoping to secure their first contract next year, after voting this spring to join ALPA.


U.S. carriers are producing enormous profits after years of consolidation. In the most recent quarter, the six largest U.S. carriers collectively earned $3.97 billion, with American, Southwest, Alaska Airlines (ALK), and JetBlue all reporting record net income for the period. U.S. carriers lost almost $60 billion from 2000 to 2009.


“This is really a good story,” ALPA President Lee Moak said Tuesday during a visit to Bloomberg Businessweek in New York, part of a quick tour to assure Wall Street analysts that ALPA’s contract demands won’t prove onerous to airlines. “I almost can’t stand it, it’s so good.”


Shareholders have started to realize returns in the form of dividends and stock buybacks. Thanks to the profits, pilots now see themselves as collaborators with management—they increasingly lobby alongside airline executives in Washington. That, says Moak, deepens the working relationships. “All of a sudden, you find yourself on the same side of 95 percent of the issues,” he says.


Another boost has come from profit-sharing schemes adopted by the airlines as a way of rewarding employees when times are good—and the deals carry no commitments should profit shrink. In February, Delta paid employees, including its 11,900 pilots, a record $506 million in profit sharing, equal to about 8 percent of annual salaries. The airline forecasts that amount to increase next year, given higher profit this year.


Southwest expects to pay out $228 million to workers this year in profit shares, nearly double the amount from 2013. United paid $190 million in February tied to its income last year. (Delta and United make the payments on Valentine’s Day.) Several airlines also pay workers monthly incentives for meeting performance targets, such as more on-time arrivals and improvements on the rate of mishandled bags. United paid employees an extra $125 for meeting on-time arrival and departure goals in July. Delta says it paid nearly $92 million last year in similar incentives. “The employees are now coupled to the airlines,” says Moak, a Delta captain who is stepping down at year’s end after four years as president.
Of course, all the cash an airline generates can go to shareholders or employees, and that basic dynamic is likely to play out in the 2015 contract negotiations—especially at Delta and Spirit, both industry leaders when it comes to superior financial returns. Moak contends that ALPA pilots at the larger carriers enjoy what he calls “mature, good contracts” already. Radical overhauls aren’t in the cards, he says.


Most of the contract talks are likely to center on basic compensation—hourly pay rates and how much carriers pay into pilots’ retirement plans. “There will be a business discussion of pay as it relates to revenue,” Moak says. “You can argue about $2 or $2.05, and that matters to the crew member,” but “you’re working on the margins” on the new contracts, he says.


Airlines have been mum on what they’ll seek in the contract talks, despite some analyst queries on quarterly earnings calls. “We have a productive and proactive relationship with our pilots and ALPA, focused on winning in the marketplace and addressing our business challenges and opportunities together,” Delta spokeswoman Kate Modolo said in an e-mail. A Spirit spokesman, Paul Berry, declined to comment, as did a spokeswoman for Hawaiian, Alison Croyle.

Timbo

One more time, for emphasis:

"Most of the contract talks are likely to center on basic compensation—hourly pay rates and how much carriers pay into pilots’ retirement plans. “There will be a business discussion of pay as it relates to revenue,” Moak says. “You can argue about $2 or $2.05, and that matters to the crew member,” but “you’re working on the margins” on the new contracts, he says."

Alan, was that clear enough for you?

So if that whole thing was a 'misquote', where's the retraction?

I agree with his latest letter, about the real pilot shortage being a Pay shortage, but he stopped short at the RJ level. He could have also included US, and the massive losses in pilot pay/benefits/retirements at the MAJOR airlines as well! Why would anyone want to suffer years on an RJ only to come to a Major...and work for 1998 pay rates...in 2014?

Timbo

I'm not putting words in Lee's mouth, from the interview above:

Moak contends that ALPA pilots at the larger carriers enjoy what he calls “mature, good contracts” already. Radical overhauls aren’t in the cards, he says.


To me, that is the exact same thing as "Labor risk is off the table."

Alan Shore

Crystal. Thanks for looking that up. I say again, though, that you asserted LM said labor risk is off the table when that was actually said by RA. Whether or not LM refuted it, he did not say it.

That's all I'm saying.

Good question. I certainly would have loved to have seen an explanation of what he meant.

DAL 88 Driver

Alan, please stop being a "lawyer" for a minute and use some common sense. Those quotes from Moak clearly communicate the idea that labor risk is off the table. Just because he doesn't use those exact words doesn't mean he's not communicating that. Timbo is 100% right.