Details on Delta TA
09-18-2014, 08:45 AM
#2001
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: Lowest Pay I Could Find
Posts: 1,044
How many people on the DPA survey are interested in CDOs? It seems there is a faction of Delta pilots who want them (I'm indifferent). When one group of pilots organizes a motion to bargain for CDOs and another organizes a revolt against them once they have been negotiated it presents a dilemma.
It would have been better if both sides had been heard prior to negotiations but I don't know how the NC could have known CDOs were so polarizing. I'm guessing a lesson was learned. While the situation could have been handled better I disagree that giving up one hour of long call to drop CDOs was "buffoonery".
Why did you choose to use the word " buffoonery"? Do you believe our elected reps or negotiating committee is unintelligent?
It would have been better if both sides had been heard prior to negotiations but I don't know how the NC could have known CDOs were so polarizing. I'm guessing a lesson was learned. While the situation could have been handled better I disagree that giving up one hour of long call to drop CDOs was "buffoonery".
Why did you choose to use the word " buffoonery"? Do you believe our elected reps or negotiating committee is unintelligent?
Most lessons are not learned, they are re-learned.
09-18-2014, 10:35 AM
#2002
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 757/767
Posts: 588
Engaging in negotiations on a subject for which you do not know the will of your constituents is not a "lesson" we should be just now learning. So, yes I would call not knowing the will of those you represent, and then changing your mind after an initial agreement buffoonerous. Surely the Co's negotiating team would be thinking that. Poor/no communication and 1960s tech strikes again.
Most lessons are not learned, they are re-learned.
Most lessons are not learned, they are re-learned.
09-18-2014, 04:20 PM
#2003
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Yes. I want our reps talking about restoration yesterday (and now). I don't want them screaming, whining, throwing a fit about it, etc. But I do want them to articulate in a professional and measured way that our objective is to restore the standard of living that was provided by our compensation during most of the 1980's, 1990's, and early 2000's. Since they refuse to do that... and since they actually make arguments against that, saying it's "unreasonable"... then it's very clear to me that their objective is NOT restoration or anything even close.
If you have a lower opinion of the value of our profession, then that's certainly your prerogative. I don't know what your background is. If you're worried about rocking the boat with you being near the bottom of the seniority list, I can understand that concern. I've only got 10 years left (to age 65) and I can understand the temptation to keep things on an even keel and play it ultra conservative. I'm in the left seat and am making pretty darn good money compared to what the average person makes out there in the real world doing other things. My retirement accounts are on track to provide a nice income when I retire.
But here's the thing. I have too much respect for the value of what we do to accept that it is appropriately worth 34% less than it was for decades prior to bankruptcy... especially given the dramatic turnaround and restructuring of our industry and our company. There's just no legitimate reason to continue compensating us as if the company was on the verge of bankruptcy. It's wrong. And I'd like to leave this profession in some semblance of the shape I found it in when I first started. You may not have that same appreciation. Your standards may be lower. I just hope you are not representative of the new generation of airline pilots.
If you have a lower opinion of the value of our profession, then that's certainly your prerogative. I don't know what your background is. If you're worried about rocking the boat with you being near the bottom of the seniority list, I can understand that concern. I've only got 10 years left (to age 65) and I can understand the temptation to keep things on an even keel and play it ultra conservative. I'm in the left seat and am making pretty darn good money compared to what the average person makes out there in the real world doing other things. My retirement accounts are on track to provide a nice income when I retire.
But here's the thing. I have too much respect for the value of what we do to accept that it is appropriately worth 34% less than it was for decades prior to bankruptcy... especially given the dramatic turnaround and restructuring of our industry and our company. There's just no legitimate reason to continue compensating us as if the company was on the verge of bankruptcy. It's wrong. And I'd like to leave this profession in some semblance of the shape I found it in when I first started. You may not have that same appreciation. Your standards may be lower. I just hope you are not representative of the new generation of airline pilots.
09-18-2014, 05:24 PM
#2004
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Yes. I want our reps talking about restoration yesterday (and now). I don't want them screaming, whining, throwing a fit about it, etc. But I do want them to articulate in a professional and measured way that our objective is to restore the standard of living that was provided by our compensation during most of the 1980's, 1990's, and early 2000's. Since they refuse to do that... and since they actually make arguments against that, saying it's "unreasonable"... then it's very clear to me that their objective is NOT restoration or anything even close.
If you have a lower opinion of the value of our profession, then that's certainly your prerogative. I don't know what your background is. If you're worried about rocking the boat with you being near the bottom of the seniority list, I can understand that concern. I've only got 10 years left (to age 65) and I can understand the temptation to keep things on an even keel and play it ultra conservative. I'm in the left seat and am making pretty darn good money compared to what the average person makes out there in the real world doing other things. My retirement accounts are on track to provide a nice income when I retire.
But here's the thing. I have too much respect for the value of what we do to accept that it is appropriately worth 34% less than it was for decades prior to bankruptcy... especially given the dramatic turnaround and restructuring of our industry and our company. There's just no legitimate reason to continue compensating us as if the company was on the verge of bankruptcy. It's wrong. And I'd like to leave this profession in some semblance of the shape I found it in when I first started. You may not have that same appreciation. Your standards may be lower. I just hope you are not representative of the new generation of airline pilots.
If you have a lower opinion of the value of our profession, then that's certainly your prerogative. I don't know what your background is. If you're worried about rocking the boat with you being near the bottom of the seniority list, I can understand that concern. I've only got 10 years left (to age 65) and I can understand the temptation to keep things on an even keel and play it ultra conservative. I'm in the left seat and am making pretty darn good money compared to what the average person makes out there in the real world doing other things. My retirement accounts are on track to provide a nice income when I retire.
But here's the thing. I have too much respect for the value of what we do to accept that it is appropriately worth 34% less than it was for decades prior to bankruptcy... especially given the dramatic turnaround and restructuring of our industry and our company. There's just no legitimate reason to continue compensating us as if the company was on the verge of bankruptcy. It's wrong. And I'd like to leave this profession in some semblance of the shape I found it in when I first started. You may not have that same appreciation. Your standards may be lower. I just hope you are not representative of the new generation of airline pilots.
Carl
09-18-2014, 05:37 PM
#2006
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Left, left, left right left....
Posts: 911
the Detroit Pilots Association is attempting to wreck my career as badly as the alpo clan
displaying a contract survey for the company to see???? wth?
talk about shooting all of us in the foot right before we are about to negotiate a new contract with the company actually making record profits
ygbsm, the madness and idiocy of that group knows no bounds
displaying a contract survey for the company to see???? wth?
talk about shooting all of us in the foot right before we are about to negotiate a new contract with the company actually making record profits
ygbsm, the madness and idiocy of that group knows no bounds
09-18-2014, 06:28 PM
#2007
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,011
Yes. I want our reps talking about restoration yesterday (and now). I don't want them screaming, whining, throwing a fit about it, etc. But I do want them to articulate in a professional and measured way that our objective is to restore the standard of living that was provided by our compensation during most of the 1980's, 1990's, and early 2000's. Since they refuse to do that... and since they actually make arguments against that, saying it's "unreasonable"... then it's very clear to me that their objective is NOT restoration or anything even close.
If you have a lower opinion of the value of our profession, then that's certainly your prerogative. I don't know what your background is. If you're worried about rocking the boat with you being near the bottom of the seniority list, I can understand that concern. I've only got 10 years left (to age 65) and I can understand the temptation to keep things on an even keel and play it ultra conservative. I'm in the left seat and am making pretty darn good money compared to what the average person makes out there in the real world doing other things. My retirement accounts are on track to provide a nice income when I retire.
But here's the thing. I have too much respect for the value of what we do to accept that it is appropriately worth 34% less than it was for decades prior to bankruptcy... especially given the dramatic turnaround and restructuring of our industry and our company. There's just no legitimate reason to continue compensating us as if the company was on the verge of bankruptcy. It's wrong. And I'd like to leave this profession in some semblance of the shape I found it in when I first started. You may not have that same appreciation. Your standards may be lower. I just hope you are not representative of the new generation of airline pilots.
If you have a lower opinion of the value of our profession, then that's certainly your prerogative. I don't know what your background is. If you're worried about rocking the boat with you being near the bottom of the seniority list, I can understand that concern. I've only got 10 years left (to age 65) and I can understand the temptation to keep things on an even keel and play it ultra conservative. I'm in the left seat and am making pretty darn good money compared to what the average person makes out there in the real world doing other things. My retirement accounts are on track to provide a nice income when I retire.
But here's the thing. I have too much respect for the value of what we do to accept that it is appropriately worth 34% less than it was for decades prior to bankruptcy... especially given the dramatic turnaround and restructuring of our industry and our company. There's just no legitimate reason to continue compensating us as if the company was on the verge of bankruptcy. It's wrong. And I'd like to leave this profession in some semblance of the shape I found it in when I first started. You may not have that same appreciation. Your standards may be lower. I just hope you are not representative of the new generation of airline pilots.
09-18-2014, 07:41 PM
#2008
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,431
Do you think we should have taken smaller pay cuts earlier, soon after9/11? Remember that we were still getting pay raises for two consecutive years after 9/11, amidst an industry in meltdown.
Or were you one of the "full pay till the last day!" sorts?
Or were you one of the "full pay till the last day!" sorts?
09-18-2014, 07:57 PM
#2009
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,011
I was in college when this was happening. Our union should have realized that there was no way for us to save it from going bankrupt. To answer your questions, I would have been in favor of full pay until the bankruptcy. I do not think we should have taken any pay cuts prior to the bankruptcy. We then would have started the bankruptcy negotiations from a much higher position. We should have told the company that we knew what they already did. Bankruptcy was inevitable, and that we would negotiate in bankruptcy. This is all in hind sight. I think it is obvious that some mistakes were made. Hopefully they are not repeated.
09-19-2014, 04:09 AM
#2010
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,574
You were in college when we went through this? And you have the gall lecture us on how you would haVe done it? Reality is over 60% at pretty much every airline voted yes. Would you have been one of them? You don't know because you were not put into that posistion, and hopefully never will be. Some of the most vocal vote no types at the beginning were the ones pleading others to vote yes towards the end. You seem to have all the answers at your tender young age. Do us and all the pilots in the industry a huge favor and get involved. Run for your local lec as I'm sure with your steely-eyed resolve you will be elected in a landslide. From there it should be obvious to all at the MEC what a treasure of leadership and intelect you are and you will be quickly elected as MEC chairman. My guess is one term and ALPA president. Good luck and I can't wait to have the leadership we deserve.
I was in college when this was happening. Our union should have realized that there was no way for us to save it from going bankrupt. To answer your questions, I would have been in favor of full pay until the bankruptcy. I do not think we should have taken any pay cuts prior to the bankruptcy. We then would have started the bankruptcy negotiations from a much higher position. We should have told the company that we knew what they already did. Bankruptcy was inevitable, and that we would negotiate in bankruptcy. This is all in hind sight. I think it is obvious that some mistakes were made. Hopefully they are not repeated.
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