DAL 88 Driver

You'd want your family in the back of an airplane flown by pilots who've had less than 4 hours of sleep in 24 hours? Really?

Dorfman

88

You and I can agree to disagree. I like CDOs with limits, I wouldn't do more than 1:30 block with 6 hours behind the door.

When we had them at NWA I couldn't hold a line of them but I could pick a few up here and there. Here is how I handled them.

Normal sleep the night prior with a nap sometime that day. Next day after I would also do a nap at some point. I would be happy to do a month of these. However if the will of the pilot group is not do to them I am ok with that as well.

Like some others have said I have more issues with the LAX to TPA type red eye then I have with properly constructed CDOs

DAL 88 Driver

Look. To be clear, I wouldn't have a problem with them if the pilots doing them would sleep something at least close to 8 hours during the day. But history shows that pilots who like and bid CDO's do NOT do that. The whole reason they like them and bid them in the first place is so they can be off during the day and do the things they want/need to do. Sleeping 8 hours during the day would completely defeat their purpose in bidding them.

So the reality of the situation is you've got pilots flying that early morning flight who've had at best maybe 3 or 4 hours of sleep during the night at the hotel and maybe a couple hour nap during the day if they're really conscientious. Based on the sleep science used in producing the FAR 117 requirement to have an 8 hour uninterrupted sleep opportunity prior to beginning a flight duty period, CDO's are by definition being flown by fatigued pilots.

You can put all the window dressing on it and rationalize it as much as you want. But that's what it really boils down to.

Spudhauler

Yes! They suck, and allowing them will be a concession. I am not typically a single subject voter, but I will vote no to any contract allowing these. Never have I been more tired then at the end of a CDO.

tsquare

How do you protect our passengers against fatigued reserves getting short called into one of these things? Short call starting at 9pm? Essentially what you have to do is double man these rotations to ensure that any pilot is quality rested prior to getting one of them. I like where this leads actually, it means that we have to have more of these broken out of the bid package, and more pilots onboard to staff for them. As long as there are 6 hours , non reduceable behind the door, I think they can be negotiated. Other than that... naaaaaaah shoot the damned camel where he stands.

sailingfun

I guess you won't be taking your family on many international vacations since less then 4 hours sleep in 24 hours pretty much describes most of the trips.

scambo1

I was also reflecting on the 2 man NRT - SIN legs. I'm sure glad the company put 3 pilots on that. Way harder to get pre-rested and brutal to fly. Toss in a little ITCZ wx and a hurricane or 2 and they are far sportier than a cdo.

DAL 88 Driver

If that's the case, then yeah probably not. I don't know much about international, but don't you have the minimum 10 hour rest break prior to beginning a flight duty period?

And let me get this straight. Because we have flying that creates challenges for getting adequate rest, you think we should add more?

Oberon

Ever been to Europe? Those trips are pretty much the same as CDOs except CDO pilots get to sleep in a bed in a quiet room instead of a seat in the back of an airplane.

Ever taken a red eye? Those are pretty much the same as CDOs except CDO pilots get to sleep on a bed in a quiet room instead of a seat in the front of an airplane.

I don't even care about CDOs. Why are you arguing with one sentence in my post which was taken out of context? There are a lot of reasons not to have CDOs but you've latched onto "pilots are too irresponsible" (paraphrasing). I can't think of a more condescending argument.

You might be more convincing if you said "CDOs are undesirable and I'd be willing to leave money on the table even if the company offered significant credit bonus to include them in our contract". CDOs are undesirable. That's it. They are no less safe than flying we already do.

Again, I don't care about CDOs. I seriously doubt the company would offer such a significant credit bonus to make them worthwhile considering the current 5:15 min day.

In the future if you choose to quote me please quote the entire post if you want to imply I'm advocating for something. At least give the other readers the chance to decide for themselves what I'm saying.

Oberon

CDOs are already limited to 14 hours duty with no ability to extend so, yeah, you'd have to have a late short call. They wouldn't have to be double staffed because one short call crew could cover for multiple CDOs but they would require something we don't currently which potentially means more staffing.

The more you understand about CDOs the more you realize the company probably isn't that into them. Any significant delay means a timed out crew and an airplane stuck at an outstation in the morning. That's about the worst thing you can do for schedule integrity.