Details on Delta TA
#1032
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You and I can agree to disagree. I like CDOs with limits, I wouldn't do more than 1:30 block with 6 hours behind the door.
When we had them at NWA I couldn't hold a line of them but I could pick a few up here and there. Here is how I handled them.
Normal sleep the night prior with a nap sometime that day. Next day after I would also do a nap at some point. I would be happy to do a month of these. However if the will of the pilot group is not do to them I am ok with that as well.
Like some others have said I have more issues with the LAX to TPA type red eye then I have with properly constructed CDOs
#1033
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88
You and I can agree to disagree. I like CDOs with limits, I wouldn't do more than 1:30 block with 6 hours behind the door.
When we had them at NWA I couldn't hold a line of them but I could pick a few up here and there. Here is how I handled them.
Normal sleep the night prior with a nap sometime that day. Next day after I would also do a nap at some point. I would be happy to do a month of these. However if the will of the pilot group is not do to them I am ok with that as well.
Like some others have said I have more issues with the LAX to TPA type red eye then I have with properly constructed CDOs
You and I can agree to disagree. I like CDOs with limits, I wouldn't do more than 1:30 block with 6 hours behind the door.
When we had them at NWA I couldn't hold a line of them but I could pick a few up here and there. Here is how I handled them.
Normal sleep the night prior with a nap sometime that day. Next day after I would also do a nap at some point. I would be happy to do a month of these. However if the will of the pilot group is not do to them I am ok with that as well.
Like some others have said I have more issues with the LAX to TPA type red eye then I have with properly constructed CDOs
So the reality of the situation is you've got pilots flying that early morning flight who've had at best maybe 3 or 4 hours of sleep during the night at the hotel and maybe a couple hour nap during the day if they're really conscientious. Based on the sleep science used in producing the FAR 117 requirement to have an 8 hour uninterrupted sleep opportunity prior to beginning a flight duty period, CDO's are by definition being flown by fatigued pilots.
You can put all the window dressing on it and rationalize it as much as you want. But that's what it really boils down to.
#1034
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Look. To be clear, I wouldn't have a problem with them if the pilots doing them would sleep something at least close to 8 hours during the day. But history shows that pilots who like and bid CDO's do NOT do that. The whole reason they like them and bid them in the first place is so they can be off during the day and do the things they want/need to do. Sleeping 8 hours during the day would completely defeat their purpose in bidding them.
So the reality of the situation is you've got pilots flying that early morning flight who've had at best maybe 3 or 4 hours of sleep during the night at the hotel and maybe a couple hour nap during the day if they're really conscientious. Based on the sleep science used in producing the FAR 117 requirement to have an 8 hour uninterrupted sleep opportunity prior to beginning a flight duty period, CDO's are by definition being flown by fatigued pilots.
You can put all the window dressing on it and rationalize it as much as you want. But that's what it really boils down to.
So the reality of the situation is you've got pilots flying that early morning flight who've had at best maybe 3 or 4 hours of sleep during the night at the hotel and maybe a couple hour nap during the day if they're really conscientious. Based on the sleep science used in producing the FAR 117 requirement to have an 8 hour uninterrupted sleep opportunity prior to beginning a flight duty period, CDO's are by definition being flown by fatigued pilots.
You can put all the window dressing on it and rationalize it as much as you want. But that's what it really boils down to.
Yes! They suck, and allowing them will be a concession. I am not typically a single subject voter, but I will vote no to any contract allowing these. Never have I been more tired then at the end of a CDO.
#1035
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The easiest way to do it is to have pre-built lines to bid on. It is just like hard lines of years past but programmed into PBS. You could also just make CDO lines an option like reserve is an option. In other words, you could bid a regular line, reserve line, or CDO line. Anything not bid would go into open time. If you made them desirable enough there wouldn't be many in open time.
The key to any CDO system are the rules. I'd make the rules a bit simpler than Mesabah but he has the right idea. I'd limit block to two hours, time behind door at least four hours, three in a row to line holders, and two in a row for reserves. They couldn't be continuous to regular pairings if picked up from open time. There are probably more rules that make sense but I'm spit-balling.
As I mentioned before it probably doesn't make much sense to have high credit CDOs and min day pay as there is no efficiency to the company. I suppose the company might want some schedule flexibility. It would have to be a pretty good deal to allow CDOs while we already have min day.
The key to any CDO system are the rules. I'd make the rules a bit simpler than Mesabah but he has the right idea. I'd limit block to two hours, time behind door at least four hours, three in a row to line holders, and two in a row for reserves. They couldn't be continuous to regular pairings if picked up from open time. There are probably more rules that make sense but I'm spit-balling.
As I mentioned before it probably doesn't make much sense to have high credit CDOs and min day pay as there is no efficiency to the company. I suppose the company might want some schedule flexibility. It would have to be a pretty good deal to allow CDOs while we already have min day.
#1036
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
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I guess you won't be taking your family on many international vacations since less then 4 hours sleep in 24 hours pretty much describes most of the trips.
#1037
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I was also reflecting on the 2 man NRT - SIN legs. I'm sure glad the company put 3 pilots on that. Way harder to get pre-rested and brutal to fly. Toss in a little ITCZ wx and a hurricane or 2 and they are far sportier than a cdo.
#1038
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And let me get this straight. Because we have flying that creates challenges for getting adequate rest, you think we should add more?
#1039
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Ever taken a red eye? Those are pretty much the same as CDOs except CDO pilots get to sleep on a bed in a quiet room instead of a seat in the front of an airplane.
I don't even care about CDOs. Why are you arguing with one sentence in my post which was taken out of context? There are a lot of reasons not to have CDOs but you've latched onto "pilots are too irresponsible" (paraphrasing). I can't think of a more condescending argument.
You might be more convincing if you said "CDOs are undesirable and I'd be willing to leave money on the table even if the company offered significant credit bonus to include them in our contract". CDOs are undesirable. That's it. They are no less safe than flying we already do.
Again, I don't care about CDOs. I seriously doubt the company would offer such a significant credit bonus to make them worthwhile considering the current 5:15 min day.
In the future if you choose to quote me please quote the entire post if you want to imply I'm advocating for something. At least give the other readers the chance to decide for themselves what I'm saying.
#1040
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How do you protect our passengers against fatigued reserves getting short called into one of these things? Short call starting at 9pm? Essentially what you have to do is double man these rotations to ensure that any pilot is quality rested prior to getting one of them. I like where this leads actually, it means that we have to have more of these broken out of the bid package, and more pilots onboard to staff for them. As long as there are 6 hours , non reduceable behind the door, I think they can be negotiated. Other than that... naaaaaaah shoot the damned camel where he stands.
The more you understand about CDOs the more you realize the company probably isn't that into them. Any significant delay means a timed out crew and an airplane stuck at an outstation in the morning. That's about the worst thing you can do for schedule integrity.
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