Originally Posted by forgot to bid

Why do you advocate pulling 300 trips a month from FOs? Why do you think that is acceptable?

And fwiw, June isn't even a good indicator of what's going on system wide.

Originally Posted by RonRicco

Any of the non summer months. They try and minimize training for the summer months since we are running such a tight schedule.

Originally Posted by Herkflyr

Do you have evidence or company statements to verify that fact, or are you just speculating? With the sims at full capacity all the time (that IS from the company) I doubt they delay OE for pilots finishing the sim portion of qualification or new hire training just due to it being a summer month.

In fact the summer months would be best for TOE as that is when we have the most transoceanic flying.

We do have other tools to deal with our busiest season. They are the 30 day summer months (a c2012 concession) and ALVs up to 84 hours (ahem... another C2012 concession...)

Originally Posted by Bainite

I just finished 4 weeks training for 320 in ATL and it's like a ghost town right now. Most instructors are flying the line for the summer and heard it stated over and over that training would ramp up again in the fall. Lots of Sims sitting idle right now and we could pretty much pick whatever time period we wanted. Don't know about other fleets.

Originally Posted by ERflyer

I think you're obfuscated the subject and what I wrote is quite clear. We're not discussing C2012 which was sucessful. The facts are laid out plainly:

• Worst case: If TA applied to June 2015 bid package, 302 out of 17363 FO Rotations would be eligible for withdrawal under TA-that’s 1.7% of rotations
• Worst case: Under TA, of 6251 first officers at Delta, additional 67 would be awarded a reserve line using 2015 June bid package

To believe that LCA OE trip pulls will have a huge negative impact on green slips is a misinterpretation of the impact. From the above numbers 67 FO's would be awarded reserve lines. If we are hiring 135 pilots a month what do you think will have a higher impact on staffing and affect green slips the most?

There are 302 trips pulled if applied for June, worst case. 302 less green slips as 6,251 FO's ALL get a 21.5% increase in pay rates. Just in one category NYC 7ERB there were 102 double pay trips for the week of June 21. One category, one seat, one base, one week compared to 302 trip pulls for the whole system for a month!

LCA OE trip pulls are a drop in the bucket of the FO green slip sea.

Originally Posted by Herkflyr

Well maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. With our complex fleet there will also always be outliers one way or the other.

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp

There are 0, count em, 0 initial qual starts in July for the 320. 11 additional instructors will be heading back to the line in August, too.

Originally Posted by Bainite

I just finished 4 weeks training for 320 in ATL and it's like a ghost town right now. Most instructors are flying the line for the summer and heard it stated over and over that training would ramp up again in the fall. Lots of Sims sitting idle right now and we could pretty much pick whatever time period we wanted. Don't know about other fleets.

Originally Posted by notEnuf

How many more LCAs will be needed in the future? There are two new types coming at both ends of the pay scale. (A350, E190) Broadening the fleet without banding will only create more need for training. Each new hire has a corresponding captain upgrade. The retirement bubble hasn't even hit yet but when it does 500-800 retirements a year for 5 or more years in a row.

Sorry I'm not buying the little to no impact. A single month historical example, if accurate is insufficient. How much sim training are we doing outside of ATL and can that number grow? It already is. Project that forward.

21.5% is misleading. 2% YOY increase in total compensation is more accurate. Rates, Rates, Rates we get it.

Worst case in June 302 green slips are lost? Your numbers. What is that in dollars the FOs are not getting? That also will grow. Its a pay concession that impacts only FOs.

Originally Posted by ERflyer

My number is 5.34% net pay growth. Where do you get 2%?

1/1/2018 an A-320 Captain will make an effective rate of $302.03 including estimated profit sharing. American: $248.96.

Pay rates aren't everything . . . but they're a lot.