Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-11-2012, 09:07 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: 320B
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05-12-2012, 05:02 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Check your spam folder. They sent out two Pilot News Briefs yesterday. The PED policy was the second and the first was charted RNAV visuals in to ATL.
05-12-2012, 05:12 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Again, you are correct, but lets look at where we are now, and what this group can accomplish. We have a PWA and all its holes. We are in talks and there will be a result. Do you take it, or do you play poker and stand to lose more than a few more 76 seat jets? Does it matter, and is not the time to make the last stand for unity? Do you think you have the leverage the way the PWA is currently written to force the companies hand in this? Do you think this pilot group will be willing to stand strong with a CH11 contract for five to ten years? You leverage will come from the pilot group, the same group that filled out the surveys. The same group that wants an alternate union and wants to divide the power base, not solidify it. Remember that
The issue with unity as described is something that has been evolving for the last 30 years. Pilots vote what they want, get what they want for they and their families, not what will be good for generations to come. Bar, how do you propose fixing this mindset? By telling every pilot here that, sorry I know you want X or Y, but you are not going to get it until you get unity. Go take your Defensive Unity course? I suspect that would be a sure fire way for the membership to seek an agent that gives them what they want.
Its a quagmire, and adding 76 seat jets in any number is just outsourcing more DC-9's. Not fixing the PWA on JV's and CS's is by the same definition not getting unity and outsourcing top end flying to save bottom end flying.
Can this group get it all, without losing a lot in the coming years as the current book is used to beat us to a pulp on holding companies, JV's and CS's? Is a few more large RJ's the sacrfice we as a group need to make to cover our flanks to truly have the leverage to force unity though the ranks and end the DCI ponzi scheme? The intent and end game will or will not be self evident in the live contractual wording we see, but these questions I ask, are ones that every scope hawk, dead zoner, 777A, 744A, new hire, and silent majority pilot, etc needs to ask not just themselves but the pilots they fly with.
*Point of my post(s) is not to disagree but to further the debate. We need good level headed debate on this issue to shed light in every corner.
The issue with unity as described is something that has been evolving for the last 30 years. Pilots vote what they want, get what they want for they and their families, not what will be good for generations to come. Bar, how do you propose fixing this mindset? By telling every pilot here that, sorry I know you want X or Y, but you are not going to get it until you get unity. Go take your Defensive Unity course? I suspect that would be a sure fire way for the membership to seek an agent that gives them what they want.
Its a quagmire, and adding 76 seat jets in any number is just outsourcing more DC-9's. Not fixing the PWA on JV's and CS's is by the same definition not getting unity and outsourcing top end flying to save bottom end flying.
Can this group get it all, without losing a lot in the coming years as the current book is used to beat us to a pulp on holding companies, JV's and CS's? Is a few more large RJ's the sacrfice we as a group need to make to cover our flanks to truly have the leverage to force unity though the ranks and end the DCI ponzi scheme? The intent and end game will or will not be self evident in the live contractual wording we see, but these questions I ask, are ones that every scope hawk, dead zoner, 777A, 744A, new hire, and silent majority pilot, etc needs to ask not just themselves but the pilots they fly with.
*Point of my post(s) is not to disagree but to further the debate. We need good level headed debate on this issue to shed light in every corner.
ACL, Bar,
What both of your points show is how critical it is to holdfast on gains previously achieved. If we trade this for that we are caught in a zero sum gain shifting inequities from one group to another.
What we need is very simple:
Improvements over and beyond our current PWA for:
That's the best way to evaluate the efficacy of our negotiations and to form an opinion on how to vote...
Cheers
George
What both of your points show is how critical it is to holdfast on gains previously achieved. If we trade this for that we are caught in a zero sum gain shifting inequities from one group to another.
What we need is very simple:
Improvements over and beyond our current PWA for:
- Pay
- Scope
- Work Rules
- Everything Else
That's the best way to evaluate the efficacy of our negotiations and to form an opinion on how to vote...
Cheers
George
Good post and understood.
Lets start with the basics. What bargaining leverage do we have now?
(A) Because Richard Anderson, Sleepy Ed and Mike Campbell take pride in Delta pilots and want us to be the highest paid.
(B) Scope sale
What bargaining leverage will we have eventually with our current contract and a protracted negotiation?
(A) Strike Vote
(B) Withdrawal of "enthusiasm"
(C) Self Help
The contract you referenced at ASA came after tough negotiations when pilots were grounding airplanes at outstations for missing seat adjustment knobs and testing the Emergency Lights on every walk around. Do you appreciate how many bulbs have to be working to successfully test that system? How does the FAA view operation of the aircraft without working safety systems? Why do I know that two of five bulbs in the Emergency Exit sign of airplanes I used to fly can be deferred?
I have appreciation for working together and partnership. We all need Delta to be successful. But, outsourcing is a mortal threat and deserves a mortal response. If Management threatens our job, we should respond in kind.
Lets start with the basics. What bargaining leverage do we have now?
(A) Because Richard Anderson, Sleepy Ed and Mike Campbell take pride in Delta pilots and want us to be the highest paid.
(B) Scope sale
What bargaining leverage will we have eventually with our current contract and a protracted negotiation?
(A) Strike Vote
(B) Withdrawal of "enthusiasm"
(C) Self Help
The contract you referenced at ASA came after tough negotiations when pilots were grounding airplanes at outstations for missing seat adjustment knobs and testing the Emergency Lights on every walk around. Do you appreciate how many bulbs have to be working to successfully test that system? How does the FAA view operation of the aircraft without working safety systems? Why do I know that two of five bulbs in the Emergency Exit sign of airplanes I used to fly can be deferred?
I have appreciation for working together and partnership. We all need Delta to be successful. But, outsourcing is a mortal threat and deserves a mortal response. If Management threatens our job, we should respond in kind.
Bar;
All well and good, really, but again, but there are some realities with question two.
1) We are the only airline that has a successful merger and as a result that release may never come
2) We are too big to be allowed to get to a point where self help is never realized.
3) We are considered a significant part of the economic engine of this country, and again, self help is a very distant possibility.
4) Doing as you suggest gets ugly. Getting back to unity, you need to have it to use it, and until you can get it, you need to find a way to get leverage.
In these talks, how do we get leverage to further unity going forward? By striking a contract down over a single issue; SJS, that will have a gradual solution towards "unity",while fixing the rest of our section one, or as George puts it, a triage concept where we stabilize the definition of our flying even though it may cost a little blood in the short term?
Those are the questions that I presume will be asked of us.
All well and good, really, but again, but there are some realities with question two.
1) We are the only airline that has a successful merger and as a result that release may never come
2) We are too big to be allowed to get to a point where self help is never realized.
3) We are considered a significant part of the economic engine of this country, and again, self help is a very distant possibility.
4) Doing as you suggest gets ugly. Getting back to unity, you need to have it to use it, and until you can get it, you need to find a way to get leverage.
In these talks, how do we get leverage to further unity going forward? By striking a contract down over a single issue; SJS, that will have a gradual solution towards "unity",while fixing the rest of our section one, or as George puts it, a triage concept where we stabilize the definition of our flying even though it may cost a little blood in the short term?
Those are the questions that I presume will be asked of us.
Of note George, there is not one new TA that was 100% with no quids, never. That's the reality. As a group we need to decide if the quids are acceptable. That's just the pragmatic reality.
05-12-2012, 05:20 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
You mean I'm supposed to take time away from APC to read all that crap they send out?? I did see the RNAV Vis. stuff...now I'll have to go back and look for the -other one-.
Oh, and since I don't already own a "Tablet" should I get the iPad, or the Nook, or the Kindle or just wait for what DL is going to give me, fo' free?
05-12-2012, 05:25 AM
Doing Nothing
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,316
05-12-2012, 05:34 AM
seeing the large hubs...
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 73N A
Posts: 3,716
Didn't get either as well. Nothing in my spam folder. Probably that crack Delta technology, sending emails one at a time.
05-12-2012, 05:35 AM
seeing the large hubs...
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 73N A
Posts: 3,716
05-12-2012, 05:41 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Starboard Side, weekends & holidays.
Posts: 855
05-12-2012, 05:49 AM
Moderator
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05-12-2012, 06:19 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
No clicks or squeezing boobs. We are at war boys and girls.
Flash.......Thunder
Does the NC have a copy of C2K? Why are they not using that as a template instead of our current bankruptcy induced contract? Why not try to cherry pick the best of both and negotiate from there as opposed to trying to just improve our current contract?
Flash.......Thunder
Does the NC have a copy of C2K? Why are they not using that as a template instead of our current bankruptcy induced contract? Why not try to cherry pick the best of both and negotiate from there as opposed to trying to just improve our current contract?
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