Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-11-2012, 08:49 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Oh, say it again, say it again 
But wait a minute ...
Kindly do not assume that I accept one of President Moak's jets to be flown by someone other than a Delta pilot, much less 153 or 255, or more. Don't confuse me with Sam I Am who eventually did decide he liked Green Eggs and Ham. I do not like outsourcing here or there. I don't like outsourcing anywhere. Matters not to me if it has 1 seat, 100 seats, or 500. The principle of unity is what matters and what directly empowers us to negotiate this contract and future contracts.
Again, the reason we are screwed now and the reason our current strategy will screw us later is because we are stuck in the mindset of dividing and allocating rather than looking at the big picture and seeking unity.
We've simply got the wrong goals and with the wrong goals will seek incorrect solutions. We need to look first at how to unify our flying by ensuring Delta seniority list pilots perform that work. Our MEC has never made that a goal.
But wait a minute ...
The decision to hold strong on 76 seats may be the correct answer for unity, and unionism ...
Again, the reason we are screwed now and the reason our current strategy will screw us later is because we are stuck in the mindset of dividing and allocating rather than looking at the big picture and seeking unity.
We've simply got the wrong goals and with the wrong goals will seek incorrect solutions. We need to look first at how to unify our flying by ensuring Delta seniority list pilots perform that work. Our MEC has never made that a goal.
05-11-2012, 08:51 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
I happen to think we are in a triage type situation when it comes to scope...
It would be nice if our current negotiating strategy would be one of expanding and building upon hard-fought gains from previous contracts, instead of "monetizing past gains" some with TOs signature on them, in exchange with other items....
Cheers
George
05-11-2012, 08:58 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
[SIZE="4"]Reserve Rules Redux
Max reserve changed from ALV to ALV + 15:00, reserve "full" at guarantee.
This is how we pay for the increased reserve guarantee. Work more, get paid more.
While a higher reserve guarantee is welcome, the increase is earned, no given to reserves and can't really be categorized as a contractual improvement. Under the current system any flying beyond the cap of 70/72 is voluntary and for extra pay. Under the new rules the extra flying is mandatory and doesn't result in increased pay or days off until reaching 80/95 hours. Scheduling will be able to place up to 23:00 of additional flying per reserve before needing to resort to green slip coverage. The effect for all pilots, will be fewer green slips and reduced availability of double pay for line-holders and payback days for reserves.
Reserves are staffed for the busy time of the year. At a minimum the higher ALV average of 76 hours per year eliminates the need for one in 12 reserves, year round. During the peak travel season, a category with 40 reserve pilots can produce a max of 2800 hours under the current PWA, with the new proposed rules 35 pilots can do the same job...The reduction in green-slips will also negatively affect the manning formula, locking in a lower pilot requirement.
Short Call increased to seven for bid periods with a reserve guarantee of 75-80
This is nothing short of unbelievable. The reduction from 8 to 6 short-calls was one of four key gains of the Joint Contract highlighted by Lee Moak in his Chairmans letter in June 2008 and presented as a significant quality of life improvement in the associated Negotiators Notepad signed by Tim O'Malley. It was a hard-fought contractual gain. And while the new flight-time duty-time regulations will force all domestic airlines with lesser work rules to improve their working agreements, Delta pilots will see an increase in short-call days. With the extra day of duty, domestic pilots will see their short call extended by 12 hours during the high ALV months, while international pilots will have their hours extended by 14. For a pilot that commutes this change could easily come with the loss of an associated day-off. Unfortunately this will also have a negative effect on the additional manning that would have been required if the new FTDT regulations were applied to the current PWA reserve rules.
The Bottom Line:George
Max reserve changed from ALV to ALV + 15:00, reserve "full" at guarantee.
This is how we pay for the increased reserve guarantee. Work more, get paid more.
While a higher reserve guarantee is welcome, the increase is earned, no given to reserves and can't really be categorized as a contractual improvement. Under the current system any flying beyond the cap of 70/72 is voluntary and for extra pay. Under the new rules the extra flying is mandatory and doesn't result in increased pay or days off until reaching 80/95 hours. Scheduling will be able to place up to 23:00 of additional flying per reserve before needing to resort to green slip coverage. The effect for all pilots, will be fewer green slips and reduced availability of double pay for line-holders and payback days for reserves.
Reserves are staffed for the busy time of the year. At a minimum the higher ALV average of 76 hours per year eliminates the need for one in 12 reserves, year round. During the peak travel season, a category with 40 reserve pilots can produce a max of 2800 hours under the current PWA, with the new proposed rules 35 pilots can do the same job...The reduction in green-slips will also negatively affect the manning formula, locking in a lower pilot requirement.
Short Call increased to seven for bid periods with a reserve guarantee of 75-80
This is nothing short of unbelievable. The reduction from 8 to 6 short-calls was one of four key gains of the Joint Contract highlighted by Lee Moak in his Chairmans letter in June 2008 and presented as a significant quality of life improvement in the associated Negotiators Notepad signed by Tim O'Malley. It was a hard-fought contractual gain. And while the new flight-time duty-time regulations will force all domestic airlines with lesser work rules to improve their working agreements, Delta pilots will see an increase in short-call days. With the extra day of duty, domestic pilots will see their short call extended by 12 hours during the high ALV months, while international pilots will have their hours extended by 14. For a pilot that commutes this change could easily come with the loss of an associated day-off. Unfortunately this will also have a negative effect on the additional manning that would have been required if the new FTDT regulations were applied to the current PWA reserve rules.
The Bottom Line:George
Delta will eventually short staff this airline and you will be owned (flying and away from home more) than you ever wished you were. As you say these rules also remove the ability for those wanting to bump pay (premium pay) to make a more money in a short period of time. Bottom line, with these rules most will be flying more hours whether they like it or not. It removes choices.
05-11-2012, 09:05 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Scope is a perfect example of this in progress. Pilots told ALPA they wanted better pay (1) and improved scope (2). Knowing that scope is what will have to be traded (the only leverage we have, really) the admin started lobbying. Fast forward to today and Reps that ran on scope are saying "the pilots really want pay." Ask the follow up question and there are muddy the water statements about production balances and reducing the total count of Rj's for some completely undefined improvement in Joint Venture language. Push them even harder and they'll either tell you they can't tell you, or candidly admit not knowing. That's effective lobbying from our Admin! Our Reps are disoriented from their initial positions and trusting the Experts.
The problem with an "Arab Spring" event is having the infrastructure ready to replace the MEC Admin. Most of the Admin works very well (good) and is obviously effective at subverting the democratic process (bad). A clean sweep of the Reps and Chair would be required to blast them out of position. That is very unlikely. Then consensus would have to be built to move in he correct direction, which would be no small feat either.
I've decided the best track is to try to change their minds and the minds of those likely to replace them. Social Media and communication with your Reps is extremely important. The Reps have two ears and hopefully have a line pilot completely covering the frequency at all times. We have to lobby our Reps, just as our Admin does.
05-11-2012, 09:06 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Oh, say it again, say it again But wait a minute ...
Kindly do not assume that I accept one of President Moak's jets to be flown by someone other than a Delta pilot, much less 153 or 255, or more. Don't confuse me with Sam I Am who eventually did decide he liked Green Eggs and Ham. I do not like outsourcing here or there. I don't like outsourcing anywhere. Matters not to me if it has 1 seat, 100 seats, or 500. The principle of unity is what matters and what directly empowers us to negotiate this contract and future contracts.
Again, the reason we are screwed now and the reason our current strategy will screw us later is because we are stuck in the mindset of dividing and allocating rather than looking at the big picture and seeking unity.
We've simply got the wrong goals and with the wrong goals will seek incorrect solutions. We need to look first at how to unify our flying by ensuring Delta seniority list pilots perform that work. Our MEC has never made that a goal.
But wait a minute ...Kindly do not assume that I accept one of President Moak's jets to be flown by someone other than a Delta pilot, much less 153 or 255, or more. Don't confuse me with Sam I Am who eventually did decide he liked Green Eggs and Ham. I do not like outsourcing here or there. I don't like outsourcing anywhere. Matters not to me if it has 1 seat, 100 seats, or 500. The principle of unity is what matters and what directly empowers us to negotiate this contract and future contracts.
Again, the reason we are screwed now and the reason our current strategy will screw us later is because we are stuck in the mindset of dividing and allocating rather than looking at the big picture and seeking unity.
We've simply got the wrong goals and with the wrong goals will seek incorrect solutions. We need to look first at how to unify our flying by ensuring Delta seniority list pilots perform that work. Our MEC has never made that a goal.
Again, you are correct, but lets look at where we are now, and what this group can accomplish. We have a PWA and all its holes. We are in talks and there will be a result. Do you take it, or do you play poker and stand to lose more than a few more 76 seat jets? Does it matter, and is not the time to make the last stand for unity? Do you think you have the leverage the way the PWA is currently written to force the companies hand in this? Do you think this pilot group will be willing to stand strong with a CH11 contract for five to ten years? You leverage will come from the pilot group, the same group that filled out the surveys. The same group that wants an alternate union and wants to divide the power base, not solidify it. Remember that
The issue with unity as described is something that has been evolving for the last 30 years. Pilots vote what they want, get what they want for they and their families, not what will be good for generations to come. Bar, how do you propose fixing this mindset? By telling every pilot here that, sorry I know you want X or Y, but you are not going to get it until you get unity. Go take your Defensive Unity course? I suspect that would be a sure fire way for the membership to seek an agent that gives them what they want.
Its a quagmire, and adding 76 seat jets in any number is just outsourcing more DC-9's. Not fixing the PWA on JV's and CS's is by the same definition not getting unity and outsourcing top end flying to save bottom end flying.
Can this group get it all, without losing a lot in the coming years as the current book is used to beat us to a pulp on holding companies, JV's and CS's? Is a few more large RJ's the sacrfice we as a group need to make to cover our flanks to truly have the leverage to force unity though the ranks and end the DCI ponzi scheme? The intent and end game will or will not be self evident in the live contractual wording we see, but these questions I ask, are ones that every scope hawk, dead zoner, 777A, 744A, new hire, and silent majority pilot, etc needs to ask not just themselves but the pilots they fly with.
*Point of my post(s) is not to disagree but to further the debate. We need good level headed debate on this issue to shed light in every corner.
05-11-2012, 09:11 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Lets get this into a resolution.
05-11-2012, 09:14 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
Again, you are correct, but lets look at where we are now, and what this group can accomplish. We have a PWA and all its holes. We are in talks and there will be a result. Do you take it, or do you play poker and stand to lose more than a few more 76 seat jets? Does it matter, and is not the time to make the last stand for unity? Do you think you have the leverage the way the PWA is currently written to force the companies hand in this? Do you think this pilot group will be willing to stand strong with a CH11 contract for five to ten years? You leverage will come from the pilot group, the same group that filled out the surveys. The same group that wants an alternate union and wants to divide the power base, not solidify it. Remember that
The issue with unity as described is something that has been evolving for the last 30 years. Pilots vote what they want, get what they want for they and their families, not what will be good for generations to come. Bar, how do you propose fixing this mindset? By telling every pilot here that, sorry I know you want X or Y, but you are not going to get it until you get unity. Go take your Defensive Unity course? I suspect that would be a sure fire way for the membership to seek an agent that gives them what they want.
Its a quagmire, and adding 76 seat jets in any number is just outsourcing more DC-9's. Not fixing the PWA on JV's and CS's is by the same definition not getting unity and outsourcing top end flying to save bottom end flying.
Can this group get it all, without losing a lot in the coming years as the current book is used to beat us to a pulp on holding companies, JV's and CS's? Is a few more large RJ's the sacrfice we as a group need to make to cover our flanks to truly have the leverage to force unity though the ranks and end the DCI ponzi scheme? The intent and end game will or will not be self evident in the live contractual wording we see, but these questions I ask, are ones that every scope hawk, dead zoner, 777A, 744A, new hire, and silent majority pilot, etc needs to ask not just themselves but the pilots they fly with.
*Point of my post(s) is not to disagree but to further the debate. We need good level headed debate on this issue to shed light in every corner.
The issue with unity as described is something that has been evolving for the last 30 years. Pilots vote what they want, get what they want for they and their families, not what will be good for generations to come. Bar, how do you propose fixing this mindset? By telling every pilot here that, sorry I know you want X or Y, but you are not going to get it until you get unity. Go take your Defensive Unity course? I suspect that would be a sure fire way for the membership to seek an agent that gives them what they want.
Its a quagmire, and adding 76 seat jets in any number is just outsourcing more DC-9's. Not fixing the PWA on JV's and CS's is by the same definition not getting unity and outsourcing top end flying to save bottom end flying.
Can this group get it all, without losing a lot in the coming years as the current book is used to beat us to a pulp on holding companies, JV's and CS's? Is a few more large RJ's the sacrfice we as a group need to make to cover our flanks to truly have the leverage to force unity though the ranks and end the DCI ponzi scheme? The intent and end game will or will not be self evident in the live contractual wording we see, but these questions I ask, are ones that every scope hawk, dead zoner, 777A, 744A, new hire, and silent majority pilot, etc needs to ask not just themselves but the pilots they fly with.
*Point of my post(s) is not to disagree but to further the debate. We need good level headed debate on this issue to shed light in every corner.
What both of your points show is how critical it is to holdfast on gains previously achieved. If we trade this for that we are caught in a zero sum gain shifting inequities from one group to another.
What we need is very simple:
Improvements over and beyond our current PWA for:
- Pay
- Scope
- Work Rules
- Everything Else
That's the best way to evaluate the efficacy of our negotiations and to form an opinion on how to vote...
Cheers
George
05-11-2012, 09:16 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
ACL, Bar,
What both of your points show is how critical it is to holdfast on gains previously achieved. If we trade this for that we are caught in a zero sum gain shifting inequities from one group to another.
What we need is very simple:
Improvements over and beyond our current PWA for:
That's the best way to evaluate the efficacy of our negotiations and to form an opinion on how to vote...
Cheers
George
What both of your points show is how critical it is to holdfast on gains previously achieved. If we trade this for that we are caught in a zero sum gain shifting inequities from one group to another.
What we need is very simple:
Improvements over and beyond our current PWA for:
- Pay
- Scope
- Work Rules
- Everything Else
That's the best way to evaluate the efficacy of our negotiations and to form an opinion on how to vote...
Cheers
George
05-11-2012, 09:21 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
These two are non starters for me. Too much long term damage to quality of life. Not everybody wants to be on the road the majority of their life. In a previous life with another carrier that had the ability to fly their pilots more hours I can tell you it was absolutely exhausting.
Delta will eventually short staff this airline and you will be owned (flying and away from home more) than you ever wished you were. As you say these rules also remove the ability for those wanting to bump pay (premium pay) to make a more money in a short period of time. Bottom line, with these rules most will be flying more hours whether they like it or not. It removes choices.
Delta will eventually short staff this airline and you will be owned (flying and away from home more) than you ever wished you were. As you say these rules also remove the ability for those wanting to bump pay (premium pay) to make a more money in a short period of time. Bottom line, with these rules most will be flying more hours whether they like it or not. It removes choices.
JB you get it!
More work, more pay is hardly a contractual gain. Having to explain why making the extra work mandatory is not good is simply crazy!
Cheers
George
05-11-2012, 09:22 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Again, you are correct, but lets look at where we are now, and what this group can accomplish. We have a PWA and all its holes. We are in talks and there will be a result. Do you take it, or do you play poker and stand to lose more than a few more 76 seat jets? Does it matter, and is not the time to make the last stand for unity? Do you think you have the leverage the way the PWA is currently written to force the companies hand in this? Do you think this pilot group will be willing to stand strong with a CH11 contract for five to ten years? You leverage will come from the pilot group, the same group that filled out the surveys. The same group that wants an alternate union and wants to divide the power base, not solidify it. Remember that
The issue with unity as described is something that has been evolving for the last 30 years. Pilots vote what they want, get what they want for they and their families, not what will be good for generations to come. Bar, how do you propose fixing this mindset? By telling every pilot here that, sorry I know you want X or Y, but you are not going to get it until you get unity. Go take your Defensive Unity course? I suspect that would be a sure fire way for the membership to seek an agent that gives them what they want.
Its a quagmire, and adding 76 seat jets in any number is just outsourcing more DC-9's. Not fixing the PWA on JV's and CS's is by the same definition not getting unity and outsourcing top end flying to save bottom end flying.
Can this group get it all, without losing a lot in the coming years as the current book is used to beat us to a pulp on holding companies, JV's and CS's? Is a few more large RJ's the sacrfice we as a group need to make to cover our flanks to truly have the leverage to force unity though the ranks and end the DCI ponzi scheme? The intent and end game will or will not be self evident in the live contractual wording we see, but these questions I ask, are ones that every scope hawk, dead zoner, 777A, 744A, new hire, and silent majority pilot, etc needs to ask not just themselves but the pilots they fly with.
*Point of my post(s) is not to disagree but to further the debate. We need good level headed debate on this issue to shed light in every corner.
The issue with unity as described is something that has been evolving for the last 30 years. Pilots vote what they want, get what they want for they and their families, not what will be good for generations to come. Bar, how do you propose fixing this mindset? By telling every pilot here that, sorry I know you want X or Y, but you are not going to get it until you get unity. Go take your Defensive Unity course? I suspect that would be a sure fire way for the membership to seek an agent that gives them what they want.
Its a quagmire, and adding 76 seat jets in any number is just outsourcing more DC-9's. Not fixing the PWA on JV's and CS's is by the same definition not getting unity and outsourcing top end flying to save bottom end flying.
Can this group get it all, without losing a lot in the coming years as the current book is used to beat us to a pulp on holding companies, JV's and CS's? Is a few more large RJ's the sacrfice we as a group need to make to cover our flanks to truly have the leverage to force unity though the ranks and end the DCI ponzi scheme? The intent and end game will or will not be self evident in the live contractual wording we see, but these questions I ask, are ones that every scope hawk, dead zoner, 777A, 744A, new hire, and silent majority pilot, etc needs to ask not just themselves but the pilots they fly with.
*Point of my post(s) is not to disagree but to further the debate. We need good level headed debate on this issue to shed light in every corner.
Lets start with the basics. What bargaining leverage do we have now?
(A) Because Richard Anderson, Sleepy Ed and Mike Campbell take pride in Delta pilots and want us to be the highest paid.
(B) Scope sale
What bargaining leverage will we have eventually with our current contract and a protracted negotiation?
(A) Strike Vote
(B) Withdrawal of "enthusiasm"
(C) Self Help
The contract you referenced at ASA came after tough negotiations when pilots were grounding airplanes at outstations for missing seat adjustment knobs and testing the Emergency Lights on every walk around. Do you appreciate how many bulbs have to be working to successfully test that system? How does the FAA view operation of the aircraft without working safety systems? Why do I know that two of five bulbs in the Emergency Exit sign of airplanes I used to fly can be deferred?
I have appreciation for working together and partnership. We all need Delta to be successful. But, outsourcing is a mortal threat and deserves a mortal response. If Management threatens our job, we should respond in kind.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 05-11-2012 at 09:33 AM.
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