Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-10-2012, 06:45 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
In that light we must be honest with ourselves and have a real debate. We need to honestly look at this: does allowing a few more large rj's but at the same time fixing all of section one, and getting up to half of DCI block hrs moved over here, a production balance that ties these jets to our growth, max caps DCI block hrs,a gtf limitation which is effectively a sunset proviso, and as a result seeing mainline grow and hire not a scope win, or is it as Carl puts it a wolf in new clothes? We need to not jet give a yes or no answer but what our reasoning is. A thoughtful debate if you will.
These types of posts and debate will be what the lurkers read and will be the best way to educate our pilots. Vitriol and rhetoric will cause people to gloss over those posts and the resultant effect to be nil.
05-10-2012, 06:47 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Help me out here fellas...
A couple of days ago I posted my thoughts on the negotiator's notepad. Several APC regulars went to the LEC meeting in ATL and essentially posted reviews that a PR department would characterize as "cautiously optimistic".
But I don't see what there is to be optimistic about. The NNP had at best (from a pilot's perspective) cost neutral terms.
I would think (and this isn't meant to be derogatory) that the company negotiators are high-fiving each other with how successful they have been; and by comparison how poorly the DALPA negotiators have done.
Why should I (we) suddenly believe the negotiators will achieve huge gains in pay, scope, retirement, etc?
Lately there have been some posts suggesting the usual "we'll get 'em next time" thoughts (also known as "another bite at the apple").
Part of that philosophy is the concept of "the time value of money". However that cuts both ways. For those of us that are deadzoners this contract is crucial as "next time" we will be on the verge of retirement and any significant improvements will have very little effect on our retirements.
I'm not trying to be a glass half-empty kind of guy but I don't see any cause for optimism based on the sub-mediocrity I've seen in the NNP...
Please tell me what I'm missing.
A couple of days ago I posted my thoughts on the negotiator's notepad. Several APC regulars went to the LEC meeting in ATL and essentially posted reviews that a PR department would characterize as "cautiously optimistic".
But I don't see what there is to be optimistic about. The NNP had at best (from a pilot's perspective) cost neutral terms.
I would think (and this isn't meant to be derogatory) that the company negotiators are high-fiving each other with how successful they have been; and by comparison how poorly the DALPA negotiators have done.
Why should I (we) suddenly believe the negotiators will achieve huge gains in pay, scope, retirement, etc?
Lately there have been some posts suggesting the usual "we'll get 'em next time" thoughts (also known as "another bite at the apple").
Part of that philosophy is the concept of "the time value of money". However that cuts both ways. For those of us that are deadzoners this contract is crucial as "next time" we will be on the verge of retirement and any significant improvements will have very little effect on our retirements.
I'm not trying to be a glass half-empty kind of guy but I don't see any cause for optimism based on the sub-mediocrity I've seen in the NNP...
Please tell me what I'm missing.
05-10-2012, 06:48 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Help me out here fellas...
A couple of days ago I posted my thoughts on the negotiator's notepad. Several APC regulars went to the LEC meeting in ATL and essentially posted reviews that a PR department would characterize as "cautiously optimistic".
But I don't see what there is to be optimistic about. The NNP had at best (from a pilot's perspective) cost neutral terms.
I would think (and this isn't meant to be derogatory) that the company negotiators are high-fiving each other with how successful they have been; and by comparison how poorly the DALPA negotiators have done.
Why should I (we) suddenly believe the negotiators will achieve huge gains in pay, scope, retirement, etc?
Lately there have been some posts suggesting the usual "we'll get 'em next time" thoughts (also known as "another bite at the apple").
Part of that philosophy is the concept of "the time value of money". However that cuts both ways. For those of us that are deadzoners this contract is crucial as "next time" we will be on the verge of retirement and any significant improvements will have very little effect on our retirements.
I'm not trying to be a glass half-empty kind of guy but I don't see any cause for optimism based on the sub-mediocrity I've seen in the NNP...
Please tell me what I'm missing.
A couple of days ago I posted my thoughts on the negotiator's notepad. Several APC regulars went to the LEC meeting in ATL and essentially posted reviews that a PR department would characterize as "cautiously optimistic".
But I don't see what there is to be optimistic about. The NNP had at best (from a pilot's perspective) cost neutral terms.
I would think (and this isn't meant to be derogatory) that the company negotiators are high-fiving each other with how successful they have been; and by comparison how poorly the DALPA negotiators have done.
Why should I (we) suddenly believe the negotiators will achieve huge gains in pay, scope, retirement, etc?
Lately there have been some posts suggesting the usual "we'll get 'em next time" thoughts (also known as "another bite at the apple").
Part of that philosophy is the concept of "the time value of money". However that cuts both ways. For those of us that are deadzoners this contract is crucial as "next time" we will be on the verge of retirement and any significant improvements will have very little effect on our retirements.
I'm not trying to be a glass half-empty kind of guy but I don't see any cause for optimism based on the sub-mediocrity I've seen in the NNP...
Please tell me what I'm missing.
05-10-2012, 06:48 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
Did anyone attend the PUB event in MSP, if so...was anything of substance mentioned? Thanks
05-10-2012, 06:48 PM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Blah.......
Last edited by johnso29; 05-10-2012 at 07:54 PM.
05-10-2012, 06:49 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Totally agree and that lackluster document was good for many reasons, most importantly that the pilots showed dissatisfaction and the company and the union know it.
05-10-2012, 06:50 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Capt
Posts: 2,049
05-10-2012, 06:52 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: A big one that looks like a little one
Posts: 633
Originally Posted by dalad
Everybodt needs to sit back and take a deep breath. We have not seen anything yet that is final. I want to wait and see the TA, then we can look at it in its entirety.
I'm waiting for someone to say they're going to hold their breath for top end scope improvements.
It's in the contract survey results. What you asked for many moons ago is what is rationally being negotiated now. While I have the utmost faith that you all made the following, and only the following demands, your barraging your reps with emails just NOW demanding massive scope improvements is probably only serving to muddy the waters for the NC. I can see it now "Umm TO. That's not what the survey results said. They said they just want to fly them for PNCL when they get furloughed".
Demands List:
1) Every RJ flown by a Delta hired pilot (notice I said hired - not merged/flowed/integrated)
2) My pay today plus 40% tomorrow.
If anything, the possibility of expedited negotiations existed because the company saw our pithy "yes-man" demands from the actual survey and while laughing inside concocted a brilliant scheme to bait us into rapidly paced negotiations to prevent everyone from jumping on the flavor of the week contract negotiating band wagon which only serves to bog things down. You filled out the survey. You did so with the thought in mind that you were getting yours. Bet none of you filled it out like I did. With the thought that some day Delta Air Lines would be a place I'd like my son or daughter to work as a pilot.
So I hope - sincerely hope - that all you lurkers out there filled out your contract survey with something more creative than more laundry money and screw reserves. Because unfortunately, other than the 22.5% you probably asked for and access to the junior left seat of an RJ, I think we've seen all we'll see this round.
05-10-2012, 06:53 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
This agreement is historic in many ways, and that may be one more item we add to the list. The reps are not going to be easily swayed on their positions. I they will have to see everything they wanted Ina few sections done for them even to consider a yes vote.
05-10-2012, 06:56 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
You make one little tpyo and everyone ignores your perfectly rational thought.
I'm waiting for someone to say they're going to hold their breath for top end scope improvements.
It's in the contract survey results. What you asked for many moons ago is what is rationally being negotiated now. While I have the utmost faith that you all made the following, and only the following demands, your barraging your reps with emails just NOW demanding massive scope improvements is probably only serving to muddy the waters for the NC. I can see it now "Umm TO. That's not what the survey results said. They said they just want to fly them for PNCL when they get furloughed".
Demands List:
1) Every RJ flown by a Delta hired pilot (notice I said hired - not merged/flowed/integrated)
2) My pay today plus 40% tomorrow.
If anything, the possibility of expedited negotiations existed because the company saw our pithy "yes-man" demands from the actual survey and while laughing inside concocted a brilliant scheme to bait us into rapidly paced negotiations to prevent everyone from jumping on the flavor of the week contract negotiating band wagon which only serves to bog things down. You filled out the survey. You did so with the thought in mind that you were getting yours. Bet none of you filled it out like I did. With the thought that some day Delta Air Lines would be a place I'd like my son or daughter to work as a pilot.
So I hope - sincerely hope - that all you lurkers out there filled out your contract survey with something more creative than more laundry money and screw reserves. Because unfortunately, other than the 22.5% you probably asked for and access to the junior left seat of an RJ, I think we've seen all we'll see this round.
I'm waiting for someone to say they're going to hold their breath for top end scope improvements.
It's in the contract survey results. What you asked for many moons ago is what is rationally being negotiated now. While I have the utmost faith that you all made the following, and only the following demands, your barraging your reps with emails just NOW demanding massive scope improvements is probably only serving to muddy the waters for the NC. I can see it now "Umm TO. That's not what the survey results said. They said they just want to fly them for PNCL when they get furloughed".
Demands List:
1) Every RJ flown by a Delta hired pilot (notice I said hired - not merged/flowed/integrated)
2) My pay today plus 40% tomorrow.
If anything, the possibility of expedited negotiations existed because the company saw our pithy "yes-man" demands from the actual survey and while laughing inside concocted a brilliant scheme to bait us into rapidly paced negotiations to prevent everyone from jumping on the flavor of the week contract negotiating band wagon which only serves to bog things down. You filled out the survey. You did so with the thought in mind that you were getting yours. Bet none of you filled it out like I did. With the thought that some day Delta Air Lines would be a place I'd like my son or daughter to work as a pilot.
So I hope - sincerely hope - that all you lurkers out there filled out your contract survey with something more creative than more laundry money and screw reserves. Because unfortunately, other than the 22.5% you probably asked for and access to the junior left seat of an RJ, I think we've seen all we'll see this round.
exactly who was your target audience with this epistle?
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