Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
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Sailingfun and Bucking bar---you are both right on.
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The pay rates in the 01 contract were virtually fixed in stone before negotiations even started. The 3B6 rates on the 73N and 777 locked up what the final rates were going to end up being. Scope was the last issue settled in that contract and in the Chapter 11. Both long after pay. You keep repeating scope was sold. That does not make it true. Scope was certainly a massive concession but the continued statement that it was sold for pay does not match the facts.
- My post dealt with the bankruptcy and concessionary negotiations, which I address as follows:
The hearing records indicate those credits were used to offset demands for concessions in other parts of the contract.
Further, our contract is an amalgamation of the NWA PWA and they were clear that their scope concessions which gave birth to Compass were used elsewhere to balance concessions. So even if you were somehow able to prove Delta's hands were clean, you've still got to consider NWA's actions, which they promoted in writing (Zipline 10-18-04).
No union yet has pushed to test on whether a Judge will set aside non pecuniary job protection provisions in a bankruptcy. American may be a precedent setting case (and I looks as though I may lose the argument) but until then it is factually correct to maintain that labor protective provisions have been held sacrosanct unless negotiated away by the Bargaining Agent.
- As for C2K:
Never heard Pinho's thoughts, but Giambusso clearly made his decision on the basis of preserving the quality of Delta's pilots and a career path for his friends in the military. Those are noble thoughts, but they are not the thoughts of union leadership.
The results of the decision against unity are self evident. Even if "management was against it" from a union perspective, the fight for unity should have been made.
- In general
I know you hate my term "scope sale" but the record supports its usage and it has resonated with our pilots to the point that it is now part of the popular lexicon and serves its intended purpose - to pressure our MEC to stop trading in scope.
Further the term helps direct our pilots' focus in the correct direction. The DPA wrongly blames ALPA National for our scope losses and if they are successful in the promotion of this error, ALPA's gone (at least from here).
At the end of the day, I want to improve the excellent union and administration we have here.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 04-27-2012 at 07:17 AM.
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I would not say we flushed those pilots. In fact we carefully made sure that every one would have his flow up honored and become a Delta pilot. There was a lot more to the representation issue then has been posted here. There were very strong legal reasons why the setup we had could potentially bite us in the butt later. Those 415 Compass pilots were not flushed and are well protected in the most important aspect which was the flowup.
Unity = Making problems disappear for pilots since 1931
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 04-27-2012 at 07:35 AM.
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Bar, as usual, I agree with what you say about Compass.
The only thing I would add to your discussion, that Sailing doesn't address, is the Compass issue was the only party line vote (there may have been one other but I can't think of it) between premerger MEC members to date. So, I would argue, there was more to the discussion than what Sailing reports.
Compass and the length of the bankruptcy contract was why I voted no on it. That flying was ours, and when they traded/sold it or what ever you want to call it.......those became our guys. I'm glad we were able to preserve the flow for them but..........
The only thing I would add to your discussion, that Sailing doesn't address, is the Compass issue was the only party line vote (there may have been one other but I can't think of it) between premerger MEC members to date. So, I would argue, there was more to the discussion than what Sailing reports.
Compass and the length of the bankruptcy contract was why I voted no on it. That flying was ours, and when they traded/sold it or what ever you want to call it.......those became our guys. I'm glad we were able to preserve the flow for them but..........
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It's OK to quantify.
They lost longevity and potentially job security. We lost jobs, the corresponding representational relevance and set the outsourcing bar a bit higher by weight & capability.
I would like to know what, if anything, we got for it.
They lost longevity and potentially job security. We lost jobs, the corresponding representational relevance and set the outsourcing bar a bit higher by weight & capability.
I would like to know what, if anything, we got for it.
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Not necessarily. If you buy parts of an airline that are blow their fragmentation threshold, their contract provisions do not come in effect. As a result, taking the employees is optional.
If you bought airplanes from an airline, it depends on how the deal is structured and if the loss would cause furloughs. Again, it is does not trigger fragmentation language, employees do not necessarily need to come with. Airplanes can also be returned to the leasing company and then washed though there.
The only scenario where you would definitely see employees is if DAL chose to take part of say AMR that equated to more than their fragmentation language, or you bought someone like ALK, HAA or B6 in whole. I do not see the latter coming before the fate of AMR is known, not just assumed.
As for a my statement about culture, the melding of cultures costs money, and time. It also causes delays in getting to the efficiencies that brought about the transaction. I am sure at some point we will take employees, but I doubt it is DAL's first choice.
If you bought airplanes from an airline, it depends on how the deal is structured and if the loss would cause furloughs. Again, it is does not trigger fragmentation language, employees do not necessarily need to come with. Airplanes can also be returned to the leasing company and then washed though there.
The only scenario where you would definitely see employees is if DAL chose to take part of say AMR that equated to more than their fragmentation language, or you bought someone like ALK, HAA or B6 in whole. I do not see the latter coming before the fate of AMR is known, not just assumed.
As for a my statement about culture, the melding of cultures costs money, and time. It also causes delays in getting to the efficiencies that brought about the transaction. I am sure at some point we will take employees, but I doubt it is DAL's first choice.
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I would like to know too, but of course that is compartmentalized information and we don't have a need to know or the proper security clearances
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As for job security, they could have been sold at any time. Although we did give up the "we demand a DC9 replacement" (whatever that was going to end up meaning) so in that respect we did give up something of theoretical but unproven and unknown value.
As for representational relevance, all that looked like was yet another DFR suit waiting to happen.
You're right about the weight limit being set a bit higher but regardless of what happened with CPZ, the flow (which was kept) or their place on the DL MEC, we had already sold that flying to management. They were part of 255 large RJ's 153 of which can be over 70 seaters. Nothing would have changed that, even if they were on our MEC today.
Its messed up in many ways, but we need to bring the flying back first. Its ours and we own the claim to it; no one else. Unless and until we take it back on our end, it really doesn't matter what MEC represents a low bidding ACMI provider, other than it makes it a little harder for them to sue us now I suppose.
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Sorry, can't help it. Wish I had been at KJFK this morning:
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