Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-15-2012, 11:48 AM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
i couldn't care less about that and neither should you. The only thing any of the reps should care about is backing the line pilots they represent. If the negotiators get it wrong, send them back to the table until they get it right...regardless of whether you voted for the negotiator or not.
But your previous statement is exactly what the MEC does quite routinely. Specifically, pressure our reps to "back the negotiators" or "show unity", rather than vote the will of their members. Your post was a perfect example.
Carl
But your previous statement is exactly what the MEC does quite routinely. Specifically, pressure our reps to "back the negotiators" or "show unity", rather than vote the will of their members. Your post was a perfect example.
Carl
Who cares who the negotiators are or who they are affiliated with? I care what they produce.
04-15-2012, 11:49 AM
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 474
i couldn't care less about that and neither should you. The only thing any of the reps should care about is backing the line pilots they represent. If the negotiators get it wrong, send them back to the table until they get it right...regardless of whether you voted for the negotiator or not.
But your previous statement is exactly what the MEC does quite routinely. Specifically, pressure our reps to "back the negotiators" or "show unity", rather than vote the will of their members. Your post was a perfect example.
Carl
But your previous statement is exactly what the MEC does quite routinely. Specifically, pressure our reps to "back the negotiators" or "show unity", rather than vote the will of their members. Your post was a perfect example.
Carl
But if a TA does come back, and it's the best the negotiators say they can do, and it's a POS, then why send the same guys back who produced a POS TA, why not get guys who can produce an acceptable TA? And what does it say about the judgment of the reps who were so out in front politicking for this team and vouching for them? If someone recommends someone for a job and that individual isn't up to the task, then it doesn't look so good on the guy who recommended him either. Just saying.
04-15-2012, 11:52 AM
Sho me da money!
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: B25, Left
Posts: 947
I am not really ready to jump into any debate about who or what as far as negotiations. But I did just do the only real option I have and strongly recommend each please do the same. EMAIL YOUR REP right now! Career Critical!!
Lets just be sure our voices are heard over and over and over..... I for one do not want to be thinking I should have done more...... Just sayin
04-15-2012, 11:53 AM
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Position: DAL Widebody
Posts: 104
Negotiating 101: Never send a TA back...the NegCom maintains that doing so destroys their credibility. (Remember the NegCom is all-knowing, so they will only agree to the TA when they believe they have squeezed the Company for everything possible, from a gentlemen's perspective.) Some may remember this 'first rule of negotiation' was seemingly violated in C2K. The threat of a strike was so great, the NegCom did go back to the Company for more, however, they added only a few (5?) low value items...it seemed more of a token attempt at renegotiation and strong arming the Company, to appease the angry pilots.
Once the POS TA is passed on to the pilots, the sell job begins: We - the pilots - MUST vote yes or else... (insert apocalyptic scenario). In C2k we were told we'd lose everything - something like: a grossly inferior contract would be imposed as punishment and we would lose all work rules and retro pay). We never did strike - and we won't this time.* (ALPA will never allow it under Moak, who clearly has higher personal career aspirations than ALPA National; read: cooperation).
So again, once something is TA'd by the NegCom, even a TA containing scope concessions...you will be voting on it. Unfortunately by then, the first rule of negotiating is shown to be true. Because...basically the union leadership has already shown their hand to the Company as to what they are willing to agree on. Even if the pilots turn it down and a strike threatens (though it hasn't/won't)...any improvements will be breadcrumbs at that point.
Those here who say scope is a definite no vote for them, I understand...it makes us feel good in the near time...but enjoy it while you can. Because when it comes to the MEC/ALPA National coordinated sell job, our voices will be drowned out. Scope loss has been an issue here for two decades and each contract erodes it more...unfortunately, so too will this contract because there will be just enough guys who buy what is being sold. The sell job will always cloud the judgment of just enough that a simple UP/DOWN vote is not so easy for a majority.
Remember, once it becomes a TA...UNFORTUNATELY, it is too late!
* Note to ACL: before you discount what I've written and say I don't give the LEC Reps enough credit... please respectfully reserve judgment until you directly experience a few section 6 negotiations on this property as a Delta pilot.
04-15-2012, 12:07 PM
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Position: DAL Widebody
Posts: 104
04-15-2012, 12:09 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
04-15-2012, 12:13 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Although this sounds good in concept, as history has shown, the reality will be quite different. First, once the Negotiating Committee reaches a Tentative Agreement with the Company, it is too late! Once the MEC Administration (through the NegCom) has agreed with the Company...it will be delivered to the LEC Reps for a vote. Our Reps may galantly fight with the MEC leadership with the best of intentions, but ultimately, the Reps will be strong armed* into ratifying what has already been agreed to in the TA. Now there might be a few hold out's (who will be forever labelled "radicals'), but it will ultimately be ratified by the MEC.
Negotiating 101: Never send a TA back...the NegCom maintains that doing so destroys their credibility. (Remember the NegCom is all-knowing, so they will only agree to the TA when they believe they have squeezed the Company for everything possible, from a gentlemen's perspective.) Some may remember this 'first rule of negotiation' was seemingly violated in C2K. The threat of a strike was so great, the NegCom did go back to the Company for more, however, they added only a few (5?) low value items...it seemed more of a token attempt at renegotiation and strong arming the Company, to appease the angry pilots.
Once the POS TA is passed on to the pilots, the sell job begins: We - the pilots - MUST vote yes or else... (insert apocalyptic scenario). In C2k we were told we'd lose everything - something like: a grossly inferior contract would be imposed as punishment and we would lose all work rules and retro pay). We never did strike - and we won't this time.* (ALPA will never allow it under Moak, who clearly has higher personal career aspirations than ALPA National; read: cooperation).
So again, once something is TA'd by the NegCom, even a TA containing scope concessions...you will be voting on it. Unfortunately by then, the first rule of negotiating is shown to be true. Because...basically the union leadership has already shown their hand to the Company as to what they are willing to agree on. Even if the pilots turn it down and a strike threatens (though it hasn't/won't)...any improvements will be breadcrumbs at that point.
Those here who say scope is a definite no vote for them, I understand...it makes us feel good in the near time...but enjoy it while you can. Because when it comes to the MEC/ALPA National coordinated sell job, our voices will be drowned out. Scope loss has been an issue here for two decades and each contract erodes it more...unfortunately, so too will this contract because there will be just enough guys who buy what is being sold. The sell job will always cloud the judgment of just enough that a simple UP/DOWN vote is not so easy for a majority.
Remember, once it becomes a TA...UNFORTUNATELY, it is too late!
* Note to ACL: before you discount what I've written and say I don't give the LEC Reps enough credit... please respectfully reserve judgment until you directly experience a few section 6 negotiations on this property as a Delta pilot.
Negotiating 101: Never send a TA back...the NegCom maintains that doing so destroys their credibility. (Remember the NegCom is all-knowing, so they will only agree to the TA when they believe they have squeezed the Company for everything possible, from a gentlemen's perspective.) Some may remember this 'first rule of negotiation' was seemingly violated in C2K. The threat of a strike was so great, the NegCom did go back to the Company for more, however, they added only a few (5?) low value items...it seemed more of a token attempt at renegotiation and strong arming the Company, to appease the angry pilots.
Once the POS TA is passed on to the pilots, the sell job begins: We - the pilots - MUST vote yes or else... (insert apocalyptic scenario). In C2k we were told we'd lose everything - something like: a grossly inferior contract would be imposed as punishment and we would lose all work rules and retro pay). We never did strike - and we won't this time.* (ALPA will never allow it under Moak, who clearly has higher personal career aspirations than ALPA National; read: cooperation).
So again, once something is TA'd by the NegCom, even a TA containing scope concessions...you will be voting on it. Unfortunately by then, the first rule of negotiating is shown to be true. Because...basically the union leadership has already shown their hand to the Company as to what they are willing to agree on. Even if the pilots turn it down and a strike threatens (though it hasn't/won't)...any improvements will be breadcrumbs at that point.
Those here who say scope is a definite no vote for them, I understand...it makes us feel good in the near time...but enjoy it while you can. Because when it comes to the MEC/ALPA National coordinated sell job, our voices will be drowned out. Scope loss has been an issue here for two decades and each contract erodes it more...unfortunately, so too will this contract because there will be just enough guys who buy what is being sold. The sell job will always cloud the judgment of just enough that a simple UP/DOWN vote is not so easy for a majority.
Remember, once it becomes a TA...UNFORTUNATELY, it is too late!
* Note to ACL: before you discount what I've written and say I don't give the LEC Reps enough credit... please respectfully reserve judgment until you directly experience a few section 6 negotiations on this property as a Delta pilot.
I will not discredit per se, but I will reply that what you state is standard tactic. Lets wait and see what these reps do, IF a crappy TA shows up.
The admin may want a unanimous vote, but I am willing to be that more than a few reps will vote "no" if it fails to meet what this group as a whole wants.
How do I know? I asked the majority of them. The makeup of this group is a lot different than it was a few years ago. If anyone tries to shove a ****poor TA down on them, they will react. Before we get there, I would also state that the makeup of the NC is mid to junior level FO's. DO NOT discredit them either.
* I will give you that this is my first fill section 6 here at DAL, but is my third one in my career. The first one I was apart of the group turned down. I foresee the same thing here if it fails to meet expectations.
04-15-2012, 12:28 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 799
I was responding to Free Bird, who wanted the reps to publicly disclose their position during negotiations. I believe there are possibly too many issues at play for that type of public statement and that most reps wouldn't make public statements during negotiations. Sorry for the confusion.
04-15-2012, 12:39 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
It depends on the question. If you ask them do you want to give away Delta flying, of course the answer is no. If you ask them if they want to increase Delta pilot block hours, the answer is yes. If you ask them about JV protections, the answer varies. If you point out the lack of global JV protections, they almost all panic. I think there are lots of questions that need to be answered and they aren't just tied to one number.
Unlike you, I don't see DALPA as disconnected, I think they are very connected to the pilot group, probably more so than you or me. They are all Delta pilots and as a body they have significantly more input from more sources and more pilots than any one of us could have.
As for DPA, I don't think they got much further than getting out of the gate. Lot's of promises and attacks, but little substance. They promised two comm reps in each base (who are they), they promised C&BLs (where is it), they promised professional negotiators(who are they, who have they retained), they promised financial transparency (what's the status of their funds and exactly what have they spent their money on). I haven't seen any of those promises kept. As they say in Texas, "all hat, no cattle."
Unlike you, I don't see DALPA as disconnected, I think they are very connected to the pilot group, probably more so than you or me. They are all Delta pilots and as a body they have significantly more input from more sources and more pilots than any one of us could have.
As for DPA, I don't think they got much further than getting out of the gate. Lot's of promises and attacks, but little substance. They promised two comm reps in each base (who are they), they promised C&BLs (where is it), they promised professional negotiators(who are they, who have they retained), they promised financial transparency (what's the status of their funds and exactly what have they spent their money on). I haven't seen any of those promises kept. As they say in Texas, "all hat, no cattle."
04-15-2012, 12:48 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: 767A (Ret)
Posts: 6,248
There used to be a saying at Delta: "We're not getting close to a TA until the negotiators resign and have been replaced. If the MEC Chairman resigns, then we're real close." 
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
