Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-08-2012, 02:25 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
04-08-2012, 02:29 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Hey cheap airline pilots, I just tripped over these on ebay. I got plane ownership out of my system, but at the time would have loved to own a C-210.
1961 Cessna 210 time capsule!! needs a new owner!! 1961 Cessna 210 time capsule!! needs a new owner!! - eBay (item 230772048227 end time Apr-08-12 16:30:35 PDT)
1959 Cessna 172 nice plane for a restore!! 1959 Cessna 172 nice plane for a restore!! | eBay
Who can, or wants, to afford an airplane anyway.
1961 Cessna 210 time capsule!! needs a new owner!! 1961 Cessna 210 time capsule!! needs a new owner!! - eBay (item 230772048227 end time Apr-08-12 16:30:35 PDT)
1959 Cessna 172 nice plane for a restore!! 1959 Cessna 172 nice plane for a restore!! | eBay
Who can, or wants, to afford an airplane anyway.
04-08-2012, 02:29 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Slow,
You are missing my point. Lets be consistent. Its only the real world at the DCI level? AMR, UCAL and USAIR will somehow not prohibit our ability to get a pay-raise in section 6, but the DCI carriers you mention will not allow anyone to pay a higher rate on that equipment ever?
You are missing my point. Lets be consistent. Its only the real world at the DCI level? AMR, UCAL and USAIR will somehow not prohibit our ability to get a pay-raise in section 6, but the DCI carriers you mention will not allow anyone to pay a higher rate on that equipment ever?
I didn't miss your point. Show me where I stated what you write above (..."ever"...how dramatic of you.)
My opinion...AMR, UCAL and USAIR's current books and circumstances hurt our ability to maximize our payraise in this contract. We will get a payraise...but if the pattern were closed (those 3 carriers paying what we currently pay) it would be an even bigger raise. Why have none of the three carriers that have higher payrates than us been able to exceed our C2K rates over the last 8 years even though they've been highly profitable and never been bankrupt?
I wouldn't call PCL, Comair, or American Eagle "bottom feeders" and they're not all DCI. They're all looking at significantly restructured contracts. SkyWest, Inc., formerly the most profitable of the regionals is breaking even and losing flying to the "bottom feeders", and it is a big UAL provider.
Nice use of the term "showcase" Bob Barker...maybe you can throw up a picture of one of your "price is right" beauties.
(That is why we must separate unity from economics.)Last edited by slowplay; 04-08-2012 at 02:46 PM.
04-08-2012, 03:19 PM
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,991
QUIT with the spin zone you're trying to apply to my posts.
I didn't miss your point. Show me where I stated what you write above (..."ever"...how dramatic of you.)
My opinion...AMR, UCAL and USAIR's current books and circumstances hurt our ability to maximize our payraise in this contract. We will get a payraise...but if the pattern were closed (those 3 carriers paying what we currently pay) it would be an even bigger raise. Why have none of the three carriers that have higher payrates than us been able to exceed our C2K rates over the last 8 years even though they've been highly profitable and never been bankrupt?
Nope. I showed you an up pattern that was only closed by 3 carriers (C2K by DAL, UAL, and AAA) and those were the first 3 to the courts. The pattern got closed going down, with the legacy industry rates within a few dollars of each other. Again, I point out that with the rest of the industry in BK or self-imposed restructuring the 3 profitable carriers still haven't come close to those open pattern rates. DCI rates are exposed due to the bankruptcies that are now visiting their segment of the industry. They're not unlike our position in 2004-5.
Again, stop with your spin. Where did I say "lost cause"? You made that conclusion.
I wouldn't call PCL, Comair, or American Eagle "bottom feeders" and they're not all DCI. They're all looking at significantly restructured contracts. SkyWest, Inc., formerly the most profitable of the regionals is breaking even and losing flying to the "bottom feeders", and it is a big UAL provider.
Nice use of the term "showcase" Bob Barker...maybe you can throw up a picture of one of your "price is right" beauties.
Actually Bar referenced economics not being a factor...in his post about unity. (That is why we must separate unity from economics.)
I didn't miss your point. Show me where I stated what you write above (..."ever"...how dramatic of you.)
My opinion...AMR, UCAL and USAIR's current books and circumstances hurt our ability to maximize our payraise in this contract. We will get a payraise...but if the pattern were closed (those 3 carriers paying what we currently pay) it would be an even bigger raise. Why have none of the three carriers that have higher payrates than us been able to exceed our C2K rates over the last 8 years even though they've been highly profitable and never been bankrupt?
Nope. I showed you an up pattern that was only closed by 3 carriers (C2K by DAL, UAL, and AAA) and those were the first 3 to the courts. The pattern got closed going down, with the legacy industry rates within a few dollars of each other. Again, I point out that with the rest of the industry in BK or self-imposed restructuring the 3 profitable carriers still haven't come close to those open pattern rates. DCI rates are exposed due to the bankruptcies that are now visiting their segment of the industry. They're not unlike our position in 2004-5.
Again, stop with your spin. Where did I say "lost cause"? You made that conclusion.
I wouldn't call PCL, Comair, or American Eagle "bottom feeders" and they're not all DCI. They're all looking at significantly restructured contracts. SkyWest, Inc., formerly the most profitable of the regionals is breaking even and losing flying to the "bottom feeders", and it is a big UAL provider.
Nice use of the term "showcase" Bob Barker...maybe you can throw up a picture of one of your "price is right" beauties.
Actually Bar referenced economics not being a factor...in his post about unity.
(That is why we must separate unity from economics.)Slow,
Not trying to "spin" anything. You responded to a post about recapturing DCI with the following:
Last time I checked PCL was in bankruptcy and looking for wage givebacks. CMR was negotiating a concessionary deal. American Eagle is in bankruptcy and getting 1113'd. Do you think the results of those situations is going to help or hurt your premise going forward?
It is from this statement that I referenced "lost cause." If I assumed incorrectly, and you disagree with this, my bad. My point which I will attempt to make one final time before going for a run is this:
Yes it will be hard to recapture 70 and 76 seat flying in house - maybe insurmountable. But it is also hard to get a raise with AMR in BK, UCAL, and USAIR floundering etc - but I believe we can and will do it.
Why do mainline competitors only "lower" the a mount of potential raise we can get, still planning on a raise, but when it comes to DCI its "
"Last time I checked PCL was in bankruptcy and looking for wage givebacks. CMR was negotiating a concessionary deal. American Eagle is in bankruptcy and getting 1113'd. Do you think the results of those situations is going to help or hurt your premise going forward?"
No spin intended. If we can surmount competitors with lower compensation at mainline and still get a raise, why do costs take on a more significant meaning at the DCI level? If I am misinterpreting you on this I apologize.
Sorry that "showcase" makes you think of Bob Barker, that really is unfortunate. I am totally amenable to any suitable substitution that you recommend.
Happy Easter.
Scoop
04-08-2012, 03:20 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
I love it... someone asks about the union actually doing real analysis on the cost benfits of insourcing, then a union guy comes on and says "we're doing it." When taken a bit deeper, that seems to not be the case. The other unionoid comes on and throws some numbers out there which were quickly taken to task. Cue defending and circles and attempts at fancy wording to look smarter with more info by unionoids which is quite transparent.
Why do our union guys try to justify the outsourcing?? This is ridiculous. Then they wonder why there is a push to get rid of this ALPA?
Why do our union guys try to justify the outsourcing?? This is ridiculous. Then they wonder why there is a push to get rid of this ALPA?
04-08-2012, 03:27 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
So could the DALPA contract span to more than one company? The regional would get their pilots from Delta and pay in accordance with the Delta contract. All the pilots would be on a master list and could bid between companies as seniority allow. I know it may not be something you can institute now, but just an idea.
Or just negotiate in the your scope clause that any contracted flying must meet certain compensation requirements for pilots, thus driving up the cost of outsourcing.
Or just negotiate in the your scope clause that any contracted flying must meet certain compensation requirements for pilots, thus driving up the cost of outsourcing.
04-08-2012, 03:33 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
The whole scope and relationship between DAL the DCI carriers and ALPA pilots would need to morph. It is possible though. Reality is the pilots here have to put a dogmatic change in the way scope is written at number one and mean it. Until then we will continue to have the debate.
04-08-2012, 03:41 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
80 ... some are good folks. This is the sort of thing which should be better targeted than simply "throwing the bums out." See my reply below.
More to the point, the Delta MEC voted against the resolutions passed by their membership in their handling of Compass. In a representational democracy this breach of fiduciary duty must not be tolerated. The recall that was called for was superseded by the expiration of the malfeasors' terms.
Until they make public statements of recompense they are on a list and will be lobbied against when they seek representative responsibilities in our union. They breached our trust by placing their own desires ahead of the pilots they promised to represent.
... and while Alpha will pile in and try to make this personal, it is not. A Representative has a duty to represent. That duty is breached when you vote against your pilots.
Slow,
IIRC Compass was started by NWA during their bankruptcy and there were flow agreements in both directions. It's my understanding Compass applicants interviewed with NWA as they would eventually become NWA pilots. This is just my opinion, but DALPA "screwed the pooch" with the way they handled Compass.
The DALPA attitude of "It's a really complex cost equation and you're not smart enough to understand..." is the type of arrogance that I really resent, and one reason why I support DALPA's ouster.
IIRC Compass was started by NWA during their bankruptcy and there were flow agreements in both directions. It's my understanding Compass applicants interviewed with NWA as they would eventually become NWA pilots. This is just my opinion, but DALPA "screwed the pooch" with the way they handled Compass.
The DALPA attitude of "It's a really complex cost equation and you're not smart enough to understand..." is the type of arrogance that I really resent, and one reason why I support DALPA's ouster.
Until they make public statements of recompense they are on a list and will be lobbied against when they seek representative responsibilities in our union. They breached our trust by placing their own desires ahead of the pilots they promised to represent.
... and while Alpha will pile in and try to make this personal, it is not. A Representative has a duty to represent. That duty is breached when you vote against your pilots.
04-08-2012, 04:02 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
04-08-2012, 04:13 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
80 ... some are good folks. This is the sort of thing which should be better targeted than simply "throwing the bums out." See my reply below.
More to the point, the Delta MEC voted against the resolutions passed by their membership in their handling of Compass. In a representational democracy this breach of fiduciary duty must not be tolerated. The recall that was called for was superseded by the expiration of the malfeasors' terms.
Until they make public statements of recompense they are on a list and will be lobbied against when they seek representative responsibilities in our union. They breached our trust by placing their own desires ahead of the pilots they promised to represent.
... and while Alpha will pile in and try to make this personal, it is not. A Representative has a duty to represent. That duty is breached when you vote against your pilots.
More to the point, the Delta MEC voted against the resolutions passed by their membership in their handling of Compass. In a representational democracy this breach of fiduciary duty must not be tolerated. The recall that was called for was superseded by the expiration of the malfeasors' terms.
Until they make public statements of recompense they are on a list and will be lobbied against when they seek representative responsibilities in our union. They breached our trust by placing their own desires ahead of the pilots they promised to represent.
... and while Alpha will pile in and try to make this personal, it is not. A Representative has a duty to represent. That duty is breached when you vote against your pilots.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
