Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-08-2012, 07:47 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
04-08-2012, 07:49 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Happy Easter all!
04-08-2012, 08:06 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Nu,
Slowplay's answer is a half answer to a question that was not specific enough. I believe the resolution that addressed this was AI 11-95 from the Nov MEC Mtg (look on the comm committe page under resolutions, can't copy from my iPad). It was to study and report back on accounting practices and costs associated with various DCI flying to determine the true operating costs.
It was NOT a study of whether 76 seat flying, aka E-175, could be performed at mainline, with seat, route, GW limits and other restrictions lifted, and duplicate managerial and other costs eliminated, and at what pay rate that could still allow a margin for the company, per Sailing's post.
I believe that someone at ALPA has already decided they don't want to pursue this because while perhaps not a negative cost item, might detract from other possible PWA gains, so the question is not being seriously considered. Of course the company doesn't want to go there because with PCL in BK, they can keep whipsawing the DCI costs even lower. So we'll put them off the scent, trot out a few old power points and brush them off and say its not cost effective.
I asked my LEC reps if any analysis as above has been done and they said not that they had seen. I also asked if there was any truth to the rumors of letting the company outsource further 76 seaters and was told they cannot discuss negotiation specifics. ****?!?
My experience is that reps will usually tell you NO if there is no truth to a rumor, but when they can't discusses means BOHICA
Slowplay's answer is a half answer to a question that was not specific enough. I believe the resolution that addressed this was AI 11-95 from the Nov MEC Mtg (look on the comm committe page under resolutions, can't copy from my iPad). It was to study and report back on accounting practices and costs associated with various DCI flying to determine the true operating costs.
It was NOT a study of whether 76 seat flying, aka E-175, could be performed at mainline, with seat, route, GW limits and other restrictions lifted, and duplicate managerial and other costs eliminated, and at what pay rate that could still allow a margin for the company, per Sailing's post.
I believe that someone at ALPA has already decided they don't want to pursue this because while perhaps not a negative cost item, might detract from other possible PWA gains, so the question is not being seriously considered. Of course the company doesn't want to go there because with PCL in BK, they can keep whipsawing the DCI costs even lower. So we'll put them off the scent, trot out a few old power points and brush them off and say its not cost effective.
I asked my LEC reps if any analysis as above has been done and they said not that they had seen. I also asked if there was any truth to the rumors of letting the company outsource further 76 seaters and was told they cannot discuss negotiation specifics. ****?!?
My experience is that reps will usually tell you NO if there is no truth to a rumor, but when they can't discusses means BOHICA
Well, that's just not true. The problem with this situation is that if the facts point to a conclusion that doesn't match certain people's preconceived expectations, then you are accused of "managing expectations," or in other words "don't confuse me with the facts." Here is just a sample of the problems you might face in this analysis. Here are some sample pay rates all from the second year, with the exception of our probationary rate that is thrown in for reference only:
Industry average 76 seat F/O : $35.40
DL probationary pay..............: $58.59
DL 76 seat F/O.....................: $58.59
Industry average 76 seat CA..: $64.60
DL MD-88 F/O......................: $84.50
DL A-320 F/O.......................: $86.46
DL 737 F/O..........................: $89.68
DL 76 Seat CA.....................: $107.71
The average hourly cost for second year pay at regionals is $100.00 per hour for the whole crew. At DL pay it is $166.30. That is pay only. Factor in 14% DC, work rules, disability, and the rest and you can see where easily our pilot costs are almost double the regionals. That is before we get whatever pay raise is your "Personal Minimum" in the ongoing negotiations. Right now the top of scale rates for 76 seat F/O's is about 30% below our probationary pay.
This doesn't imply any answer to any question. It is just the statement that this hasn't been studied is just completely false.
I gave two year rates, but this disparity exists all throughout the longevity steps. The problems it can generate cascade down in many different ways, but I am already going to be firebombed for "managing expectations" so I will just quit while I am behind. Just imagine a career path for a pilot that comes in at mainline narrowbody first officer and one that comes in at industry standard 76 seat wages. Show me those career paths and how a pilot in each path has equal pay over their first five years. The problems are incredibly complex.
By the way, all of this information is available to anyone that would take a couple of hours to do the research. Doing that work might be a better path to making an informed decision.
04-08-2012, 08:27 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: 7er
Posts: 1,673
Well, that's just not true. The problem with this situation is that if the facts point to a conclusion that doesn't match certain people's preconceived expectations, then you are accused of "managing expectations," or in other words "don't confuse me with the facts." Here is just a sample of the problems you might face in this analysis. Here are some sample pay rates all from the second year, with the exception of our probationary rate that is thrown in for reference only:
Industry average 76 seat F/O : $35.40
DL probationary pay..............: $58.59
DL 76 seat F/O.....................: $58.59
Industry average 76 seat CA..: $64.60
DL MD-88 F/O......................: $84.50
DL A-320 F/O.......................: $86.46
DL 737 F/O..........................: $89.68
DL 76 Seat CA.....................: $107.71
The average hourly cost for second year pay at regionals is $100.00 per hour for the whole crew. At DL pay it is $166.30. That is pay only. Factor in 14% DC, work rules, disability, and the rest and you can see where easily our pilot costs are almost double the regionals. That is before we get whatever pay raise is your "Personal Minimum" in the ongoing negotiations. Right now the top of scale rates for 76 seat F/O's is about 30% below our probationary pay.
This doesn't imply any answer to any question. It is just the statement that this hasn't been studied is just completely false.
I gave two year rates, but this disparity exists all throughout the longevity steps. The problems it can generate cascade down in many different ways, but I am already going to be firebombed for "managing expectations" so I will just quit while I am behind. Just imagine a career path for a pilot that comes in at mainline narrowbody first officer and one that comes in at industry standard 76 seat wages. Show me those career paths and how a pilot in each path has equal pay over their first five years. The problems are incredibly complex.
By the way, all of this information is available to anyone that would take a couple of hours to do the research. Doing that work might be a better path to making an informed decision.
Industry average 76 seat F/O : $35.40
DL probationary pay..............: $58.59
DL 76 seat F/O.....................: $58.59
Industry average 76 seat CA..: $64.60
DL MD-88 F/O......................: $84.50
DL A-320 F/O.......................: $86.46
DL 737 F/O..........................: $89.68
DL 76 Seat CA.....................: $107.71
The average hourly cost for second year pay at regionals is $100.00 per hour for the whole crew. At DL pay it is $166.30. That is pay only. Factor in 14% DC, work rules, disability, and the rest and you can see where easily our pilot costs are almost double the regionals. That is before we get whatever pay raise is your "Personal Minimum" in the ongoing negotiations. Right now the top of scale rates for 76 seat F/O's is about 30% below our probationary pay.
This doesn't imply any answer to any question. It is just the statement that this hasn't been studied is just completely false.
I gave two year rates, but this disparity exists all throughout the longevity steps. The problems it can generate cascade down in many different ways, but I am already going to be firebombed for "managing expectations" so I will just quit while I am behind. Just imagine a career path for a pilot that comes in at mainline narrowbody first officer and one that comes in at industry standard 76 seat wages. Show me those career paths and how a pilot in each path has equal pay over their first five years. The problems are incredibly complex.
By the way, all of this information is available to anyone that would take a couple of hours to do the research. Doing that work might be a better path to making an informed decision.
04-08-2012, 08:49 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 581
Well, that's just not true. The problem with this situation is that if the facts point to a conclusion that doesn't match certain people's preconceived expectations, then you are accused of "managing expectations," or in other words "don't confuse me with the facts." Here is just a sample of the problems you might face in this analysis. Here are some sample pay rates all from the second year, with the exception of our probationary rate that is thrown in for reference only:
Industry average 76 seat F/O : $35.40
DL probationary pay..............: $58.59
DL 76 seat F/O.....................: $58.59
Industry average 76 seat CA..: $64.60
DL MD-88 F/O......................: $84.50
DL A-320 F/O.......................: $86.46
DL 737 F/O..........................: $89.68
DL 76 Seat CA.....................: $107.71
The average hourly cost for second year pay at regionals is $100.00 per hour for the whole crew. At DL pay it is $166.30. That is pay only. Factor in 14% DC, work rules, disability, and the rest and you can see where easily our pilot costs are almost double the regionals. That is before we get whatever pay raise is your "Personal Minimum" in the ongoing negotiations. Right now the top of scale rates for 76 seat F/O's is about 30% below our probationary pay.
This doesn't imply any answer to any question. It is just the statement that this hasn't been studied is just completely false.
I gave two year rates, but this disparity exists all throughout the longevity steps. The problems it can generate cascade down in many different ways, but I am already going to be firebombed for "managing expectations" so I will just quit while I am behind. Just imagine a career path for a pilot that comes in at mainline narrowbody first officer and one that comes in at industry standard 76 seat wages. Show me those career paths and how a pilot in each path has equal pay over their first five years. The problems are incredibly complex.
By the way, all of this information is available to anyone that would take a couple of hours to do the research. Doing that work might be a better path to making an informed decision.
Industry average 76 seat F/O : $35.40
DL probationary pay..............: $58.59
DL 76 seat F/O.....................: $58.59
Industry average 76 seat CA..: $64.60
DL MD-88 F/O......................: $84.50
DL A-320 F/O.......................: $86.46
DL 737 F/O..........................: $89.68
DL 76 Seat CA.....................: $107.71
The average hourly cost for second year pay at regionals is $100.00 per hour for the whole crew. At DL pay it is $166.30. That is pay only. Factor in 14% DC, work rules, disability, and the rest and you can see where easily our pilot costs are almost double the regionals. That is before we get whatever pay raise is your "Personal Minimum" in the ongoing negotiations. Right now the top of scale rates for 76 seat F/O's is about 30% below our probationary pay.
This doesn't imply any answer to any question. It is just the statement that this hasn't been studied is just completely false.
I gave two year rates, but this disparity exists all throughout the longevity steps. The problems it can generate cascade down in many different ways, but I am already going to be firebombed for "managing expectations" so I will just quit while I am behind. Just imagine a career path for a pilot that comes in at mainline narrowbody first officer and one that comes in at industry standard 76 seat wages. Show me those career paths and how a pilot in each path has equal pay over their first five years. The problems are incredibly complex.
By the way, all of this information is available to anyone that would take a couple of hours to do the research. Doing that work might be a better path to making an informed decision.
You take other forum members to task for lack of research. Better look in the mirror buddy...
Here's the thing. I just spent maybe 10 minutes looking only at Captain pay for 76 seat jets. That's the CRJ-900 and E-190.
You claim that industry average 76 seat Captain pay is $64.60 per hour.
I want to see your "research".
I don't believe there are any CRJ-900 Captains with one or two years of longevity at any what I'll call "Respectable Regionals".
SkyWest: Year 2 (not likely): $66/hour Year 20: $112/hour
ASA: Year 2 (not likely): $65/hour Year 18: $107/hour
Jet Blue: Year 2 (not likely): $126/hour Year 12: $143/hour
Pinnacle/Mesaba: Year 2 (not likely): $67/hour Year 20: $106/hour
Mesa: Year 2 (not likely): $63/hour Year 20: $104/hour
Quick averages shows year two Captain pay at $77.40 and top scale at $114.40.
While you and I differ on the merits of the DALPA/DPA debate, I certainly hope that ALPA's "best and brightest" E&FA specialists are more accurate than your numbers or we are doomed.
04-08-2012, 08:58 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
But he's not wrong.
Take a look at the front page of this website and compare. DAL's DC is 14%. The first 5 years at DCI regionals have an average 401K percentage match of pilot contributions around 5% that's based on an average crew wage that's 66% less. Per Diem is 20% lower at the regionals. ($1.65-$1.70 compared to $2.00 at DAL). Work rules? Compass deadheads at 75% pay. Yes, they have higher hours in their reserve guarantee, but they also get fewer days off. Both those components lower DCI pilot costs compared to mainline rules. DCI regional hotel costs are about 20% less than Delta.
And all these are costs under our current contract...not the more expensive one we're negotiating.
Last time I checked PCL was in bankruptcy and looking for wage givebacks. CMR was negotiating a concessionary deal. American Eagle is in bankruptcy and getting 1113'd. Do you think the results of those situations is going to help or hurt your premise going forward?
04-08-2012, 09:04 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Well, that's just not true. The problem with this situation is that if the facts point to a conclusion that doesn't match certain people's preconceived expectations, then you are accused of "managing expectations," or in other words "don't confuse me with the facts." Here is just a sample of the problems you might face in this analysis. Here are some sample pay rates all from the second year, with the exception of our probationary rate that is thrown in for reference only:
Industry average 76 seat F/O : $35.40
DL probationary pay..............: $58.59
DL 76 seat F/O.....................: $58.59
Industry average 76 seat CA..: $64.60
DL MD-88 F/O......................: $84.50
DL A-320 F/O.......................: $86.46
DL 737 F/O..........................: $89.68
DL 76 Seat CA.....................: $107.71
The average hourly cost for second year pay at regionals is $100.00 per hour for the whole crew. At DL pay it is $166.30. That is pay only. Factor in 14% DC, work rules, disability, and the rest and you can see where easily our pilot costs are almost double the regionals. That is before we get whatever pay raise is your "Personal Minimum" in the ongoing negotiations. Right now the top of scale rates for 76 seat F/O's is about 30% below our probationary pay.
This doesn't imply any answer to any question. It is just the statement that this hasn't been studied is just completely false.
I gave two year rates, but this disparity exists all throughout the longevity steps. The problems it can generate cascade down in many different ways, but I am already going to be firebombed for "managing expectations" so I will just quit while I am behind. Just imagine a career path for a pilot that comes in at mainline narrowbody first officer and one that comes in at industry standard 76 seat wages. Show me those career paths and how a pilot in each path has equal pay over their first five years. The problems are incredibly complex.
By the way, all of this information is available to anyone that would take a couple of hours to do the research. Doing that work might be a better path to making an informed decision.
Industry average 76 seat F/O : $35.40
DL probationary pay..............: $58.59
DL 76 seat F/O.....................: $58.59
Industry average 76 seat CA..: $64.60
DL MD-88 F/O......................: $84.50
DL A-320 F/O.......................: $86.46
DL 737 F/O..........................: $89.68
DL 76 Seat CA.....................: $107.71
The average hourly cost for second year pay at regionals is $100.00 per hour for the whole crew. At DL pay it is $166.30. That is pay only. Factor in 14% DC, work rules, disability, and the rest and you can see where easily our pilot costs are almost double the regionals. That is before we get whatever pay raise is your "Personal Minimum" in the ongoing negotiations. Right now the top of scale rates for 76 seat F/O's is about 30% below our probationary pay.
This doesn't imply any answer to any question. It is just the statement that this hasn't been studied is just completely false.
I gave two year rates, but this disparity exists all throughout the longevity steps. The problems it can generate cascade down in many different ways, but I am already going to be firebombed for "managing expectations" so I will just quit while I am behind. Just imagine a career path for a pilot that comes in at mainline narrowbody first officer and one that comes in at industry standard 76 seat wages. Show me those career paths and how a pilot in each path has equal pay over their first five years. The problems are incredibly complex.
By the way, all of this information is available to anyone that would take a couple of hours to do the research. Doing that work might be a better path to making an informed decision.
First of all, Happy Easter everyone. Hope you are enjoying it with your families. For those that are out on the line, I wish for you a quick return home and eventually holiday pay like the other employees receive.
Alpha, I'm really surprised. Both Delta1067 and Wasatch make a good point. This is not a good comparison and is surprisingly sloppy for you. Any chance you'd like another shot and a re-do on your work here?
Take care everyone
04-08-2012, 09:09 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: DAL FO
Posts: 134
Yeah but how much does that regional CEO make? How about the entire management team? How about the board? How about all those schedulers? How about training Departments and property rented? Delete all of that and I'm sure mainline control would be cheaper. The only reason they keep it up is to keep the camels nose under that tent. So that one day they might be able to outsource even more.
I think they know it's cheaper they just don't want to admit the entire rj debacle mistake they've made. Just a thought...
I think they know it's cheaper they just don't want to admit the entire rj debacle mistake they've made. Just a thought...
04-08-2012, 09:09 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Well, that's just not true. The problem with this situation is that if the facts point to a conclusion that doesn't match certain people's preconceived expectations, then you are accused of "managing expectations," or in other words "don't confuse me with the facts." Here is just a sample of the problems you might face in this analysis. Here are some sample pay rates all from the second year, with the exception of our probationary rate that is thrown in for reference only:
Industry average 76 seat F/O : $35.40
DL probationary pay..............: $58.59
DL 76 seat F/O.....................: $58.59
Industry average 76 seat CA..: $64.60
DL MD-88 F/O......................: $84.50
DL A-320 F/O.......................: $86.46
DL 737 F/O..........................: $89.68
DL 76 Seat CA.....................: $107.71
The average hourly cost for second year pay at regionals is $100.00 per hour for the whole crew. At DL pay it is $166.30. That is pay only. Factor in 14% DC, work rules, disability, and the rest and you can see where easily our pilot costs are almost double the regionals. That is before we get whatever pay raise is your "Personal Minimum" in the ongoing negotiations. Right now the top of scale rates for 76 seat F/O's is about 30% below our probationary pay.
This doesn't imply any answer to any question. It is just the statement that this hasn't been studied is just completely false.
I gave two year rates, but this disparity exists all throughout the longevity steps. The problems it can generate cascade down in many different ways, but I am already going to be firebombed for "managing expectations" so I will just quit while I am behind. Just imagine a career path for a pilot that comes in at mainline narrowbody first officer and one that comes in at industry standard 76 seat wages. Show me those career paths and how a pilot in each path has equal pay over their first five years. The problems are incredibly complex.
By the way, all of this information is available to anyone that would take a couple of hours to do the research. Doing that work might be a better path to making an informed decision.
Industry average 76 seat F/O : $35.40
DL probationary pay..............: $58.59
DL 76 seat F/O.....................: $58.59
Industry average 76 seat CA..: $64.60
DL MD-88 F/O......................: $84.50
DL A-320 F/O.......................: $86.46
DL 737 F/O..........................: $89.68
DL 76 Seat CA.....................: $107.71
The average hourly cost for second year pay at regionals is $100.00 per hour for the whole crew. At DL pay it is $166.30. That is pay only. Factor in 14% DC, work rules, disability, and the rest and you can see where easily our pilot costs are almost double the regionals. That is before we get whatever pay raise is your "Personal Minimum" in the ongoing negotiations. Right now the top of scale rates for 76 seat F/O's is about 30% below our probationary pay.
This doesn't imply any answer to any question. It is just the statement that this hasn't been studied is just completely false.
I gave two year rates, but this disparity exists all throughout the longevity steps. The problems it can generate cascade down in many different ways, but I am already going to be firebombed for "managing expectations" so I will just quit while I am behind. Just imagine a career path for a pilot that comes in at mainline narrowbody first officer and one that comes in at industry standard 76 seat wages. Show me those career paths and how a pilot in each path has equal pay over their first five years. The problems are incredibly complex.
By the way, all of this information is available to anyone that would take a couple of hours to do the research. Doing that work might be a better path to making an informed decision.
Rates arent the whole picture. You are correct in saying that it is complex (no doubt about that) due to the varying efficiencies of aircraft and CASMs, but what is the crew cost per passenger seat per hour? I'm sure FTB could make a pretty spreadsheet for that, it is not my forte'. I think just comparing hourly rates/passenger is fair comparison for the sake of arguement(leaving out DC and the other extraneous items). I don't think it gets us anywhere, but it is an academic discussion anyway isn't it?
There are wide variances between DCI's when it comes to rotation construction, DC plans, etc. I have seen their rotations, some are ugly, some are 24-26 hour 4 days. This is why I think hourly cost per seat per hour is a fair comparison for bringing it in house.
This, by the way, isn't me wishing for anything...although you all know where I stand on the topic. I also think SWA W-2's+5% for the 88 is the floor.
04-08-2012, 09:20 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: 7er
Posts: 1,673
Just for fun, let's assume he's wrong on all the peripheral stuff. He's just shown you a direct crew cost disadvantage (cost increase) of 66%, not including reserves and all the other stuff associated in a mainline versus DCI comparison.
But he's not wrong.
Take a look at the front page of this website and compare. DAL's DC is 14%. The first 5 years at DCI regionals have an average 401K percentage match of pilot contributions around 5% that's based on an average crew wage that's 66% less. Per Diem is 20% lower at the regionals. ($1.65-$1.70 compared to $2.00 at DAL). Work rules? Compass deadheads at 75% pay. Yes, they have higher hours in their reserve guarantee, but they also get fewer days off. Both those components lower DCI pilot costs compared to mainline rules. DCI regional hotel costs are about 20% less than Delta.
And all these are costs under our current contract...not the more expensive one we're negotiating.
Last time I checked PCL was in bankruptcy and looking for wage givebacks. CMR was negotiating a concessionary deal. American Eagle is in bankruptcy and getting 1113'd. Do you think the results of those situations is going to help or hurt your premise going forward?
But he's not wrong.
Take a look at the front page of this website and compare. DAL's DC is 14%. The first 5 years at DCI regionals have an average 401K percentage match of pilot contributions around 5% that's based on an average crew wage that's 66% less. Per Diem is 20% lower at the regionals. ($1.65-$1.70 compared to $2.00 at DAL). Work rules? Compass deadheads at 75% pay. Yes, they have higher hours in their reserve guarantee, but they also get fewer days off. Both those components lower DCI pilot costs compared to mainline rules. DCI regional hotel costs are about 20% less than Delta.
And all these are costs under our current contract...not the more expensive one we're negotiating.
Last time I checked PCL was in bankruptcy and looking for wage givebacks. CMR was negotiating a concessionary deal. American Eagle is in bankruptcy and getting 1113'd. Do you think the results of those situations is going to help or hurt your premise going forward?
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