Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
![Default](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
OK, but how do we 'recover' all the RJ flying, and 'staple' them, legally, without risking an arbitrated list, that might put a whole bunch of -them- in front of -you-?
I think with Richard now making DL the DIP financeir for Pinacle, there is an opportunity, but then I thought the same thing with Com Air and ASA and Compass...none of it worked out, for recovering our outsourced flying.
For obvious reasons, Richard doesn't WANT them all on our list, and on our contract, so I doubt he'd offer it up to our team anyway, but if he wants this done quickly...well, how bad do you want it Richard?
Put up or shut up Richard.
I think with Richard now making DL the DIP financeir for Pinacle, there is an opportunity, but then I thought the same thing with Com Air and ASA and Compass...none of it worked out, for recovering our outsourced flying.
For obvious reasons, Richard doesn't WANT them all on our list, and on our contract, so I doubt he'd offer it up to our team anyway, but if he wants this done quickly...well, how bad do you want it Richard?
Put up or shut up Richard.
hmmm? any takers?
Also to take care of some of the clowns we have hired over the years, you have 1-2 years probation for every pinnacle pilot
This would also take care of at least 2 of the years you guys will have to hire 800 pilots a year
![PinnacleFO is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
![](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/clear.gif)
![Default](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
What about this: Since pinnacle is an going to be an all DCI carrier soon you basically propose a staple but you look at the list at pinnacle and you say that no captain can lose his seat or seniority as long as the airplane is flying. We have a bunch of lifers at the top who will not move on anywhere else so its not fair to them to be stapled but also its not fair to have any regional pilot move ahead of a mainline pilot so if mainline is trying to recapture all the flying, staple the regionals starting with pinnacle but put in a 5-10 year agreement saying that no mainline pilot may displace a pre pinnacle captain on the pre regional aircraft unless there are furloughs. If that captain bids for an fo spot on a delta aircraft, he gives up those rights and a delta pilot may replace his captain seat. The final result would be that all pinnacle pilots would be on the delta seniority list behind the last current delta pilot. As the 200's are parked the pinnacle pilots would fall into available FO positions on the current delta fleet.
hmmm? any takers?
Also to take care of some of the clowns we have hired over the years, you have 1-2 years probation for every pinnacle pilot
This would also take care of at least 2 of the years you guys will have to hire 800 pilots a year
hmmm? any takers?
Also to take care of some of the clowns we have hired over the years, you have 1-2 years probation for every pinnacle pilot
This would also take care of at least 2 of the years you guys will have to hire 800 pilots a year
I'm down with that.
![Smile](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif)
The ASA/Comair thing years ago I think was short sightedness on the account of both parties. I don't think DALPA really wanted to force the issue and the senior ASA/Comair guys did exactly as expected.
All this being theoretical of course... remember Comair is still owned by Delta, too. I doubt there would be anything to force the issue of bringing all the Pineapple people on.
![80ktsClamp is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
![Default](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
A staple of Pinnacle is too much of a mess. if they didnt do it for compass (nwa hired, part of a nwa deal, all 70-76 seaters) Ii doubt they'd do it for any large operator without that unique relationship and tons of 50 seaters.
how to recapture scope? as far as i am concerned we adopt an RAH scope policy; all flying for Delta is done by a pilot on the Chatauaqua seniority list.
i mean delta list.
and how do we get that? we offer unlimited 76 seaters but each time that airplane goes airborne two Delta pilots at the controls on our pwa or it doesnt carry a single delta passenger.
will the company go for it? hell no. why end a perfectly good and seamless whipsaw?
back to square 1.
how to recapture scope? as far as i am concerned we adopt an RAH scope policy; all flying for Delta is done by a pilot on the Chatauaqua seniority list.
i mean delta list.
and how do we get that? we offer unlimited 76 seaters but each time that airplane goes airborne two Delta pilots at the controls on our pwa or it doesnt carry a single delta passenger.
will the company go for it? hell no. why end a perfectly good and seamless whipsaw?
back to square 1.
![forgot to bid is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
![scambo1 is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 403
![Default](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Today my bank informed me my card had been "compromised" with fraudulent charges in last two weeks. The charges were to "TWA corp" in NYC, I haven't been there in a month or so but seems to be linked to airport coffee/food concessions purchases.....
At least the criminals have a sense of humor
At least the criminals have a sense of humor
![FlyZ is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
![Default](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
In the name of scope recapture I think we should just start a PR campaign around a simple question, "if Delta Air Lines' is the best, why does it outsource YOUR FLIGHT to multiple regional airlines jockeying to be the next lowest bidder?" Or in fun bumper sticker size: "BITTER ABOUT FLYING ON THE LOWEST BIDDER?"
Or a little more centric to our needs: "Ask why is your Delta flight not being flown by Delta pilots?
The connotation on that last question would be a problem for ALPA to run with because how can ALPA in good faith say Delta Air Lines pilots are better than Pinnacle/Comair/ExpressJet/Alaska/Compass pilots who are also ALPA?
The general direction here though is, shame them out of regional service and bring Delta passengers home to Delta Air Lines.
Or a little more centric to our needs: "Ask why is your Delta flight not being flown by Delta pilots?
The connotation on that last question would be a problem for ALPA to run with because how can ALPA in good faith say Delta Air Lines pilots are better than Pinnacle/Comair/ExpressJet/Alaska/Compass pilots who are also ALPA?
The general direction here though is, shame them out of regional service and bring Delta passengers home to Delta Air Lines.
![forgot to bid is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
![Default](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Don't know how you determine standard deviation from comments on this board (which were unanimous against your concept). Perhaps you are privy to the survey data which shows pay as by far the leading interest of Delta pilots. If so, consider that the survey did not consider whether a scope concession was an immediate existential threat to ALPA as the bargaining agent for Delta pilots going forward.
I support ALPA, but more so, I support my fellow pilots (even you). Unity does not allow more outsourcing, even if fewer 70 seaters (ahem ... unwanted 50 seaters) balance the deal. Management can get them, but a Delta Pilot must fly them.
Why not negotiate a lower DAL 70 seater rate that puts us in the game and give the widebody guys more money? That's more of a win / win than more out sourcing and really, the productivity of the larger jets justify more of a pay differential than we have now.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 04-06-2012 at 08:13 PM.
![Bucking Bar is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
![Default](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
In the name of scope recapture I think we should just start a PR campaign around a simple question, "if Delta Air Lines' is the best, why does it outsource YOUR FLIGHT to multiple regional airlines jockeying to be the next lowest bidder?" Or in fun bumper sticker size: "BITTER ABOUT FLYING ON THE LOWEST BIDDER?"
Or a little more centric to our needs: "Ask why is your Delta flight not being flown by Delta pilots?
The connotation on that last question would be a problem for ALPA to run with because how can ALPA in good faith say Delta Air Lines pilots are better than Pinnacle/Comair/ExpressJet/Alaska/Compass pilots who are also ALPA?
The general direction here though is, shame them out of regional service.
Or a little more centric to our needs: "Ask why is your Delta flight not being flown by Delta pilots?
The connotation on that last question would be a problem for ALPA to run with because how can ALPA in good faith say Delta Air Lines pilots are better than Pinnacle/Comair/ExpressJet/Alaska/Compass pilots who are also ALPA?
The general direction here though is, shame them out of regional service.
![Bucking Bar is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
![Default](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
![](http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad230/ForgottoBid/temp4-71.png)
i.e. A Delta Air Lines 737-800 = A Delta Air Lines E-175 operated by Shuttle America.
i.e. A Delta Air Lines 737-800 flown by Delta Air Lines pilots, served by Delta Air Lines flight attendants, dispatched by Delta Air Lines dispatchers, maintained by Delta Air Lines mechanics, serviced by Delta Air Lines ground personnel, boarded by Delta Air Lines gate agents = A Delta Air Lines E-175 operated by Shuttle America, a subsidiary of Republic Airways Holdings who also owns Frontier Airlines, flown by Chautauqua pilots, served by Shuttle America flight attendants?, dispatched by.... I get confused with them. Who runs that place again?
![forgot to bid is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 403
![Default](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
They could say "we demand as one of our highest priorities a significant reduction in the Alaska code share abuse and significantly fewer outsourced aircraft at DCI, particularly the larger RJ's."
That is vague and conceptual and leaves a lot of room at the bargaining table. It merely points to the direction we intend on going. Just like for pay. We didn't say exactly what percentage we were after, but we did say we wanted significant increases in pay. Ditto for many other sections. But when it comes to scope we deviate from that and invent murky constructs like "production balances" which could mean worse scope and more large RJ's depending on how its defined at the moment.
That is vague and conceptual and leaves a lot of room at the bargaining table. It merely points to the direction we intend on going. Just like for pay. We didn't say exactly what percentage we were after, but we did say we wanted significant increases in pay. Ditto for many other sections. But when it comes to scope we deviate from that and invent murky constructs like "production balances" which could mean worse scope and more large RJ's depending on how its defined at the moment.
A) We do not support any larger aircraft at DCI, jet, turbofan, or turboprop.
B) We demand as one of our highest priorities a significant reduction in the Alaska code share abuse and significantly fewer outsourced aircraft at DCI, particularly the larger RJs (borrowed from Gloopy, because as usual, he speaks for me).
I would argue they are on the same level, as far as showing our cards or setting the bar. And yet, our union made Statement A and not Statement B. I can only infer that there is some CYA going on with the thousands of RJ pilots they also represent. Also maybe some CYA with us - they don't want to make a strong scope promise now and then have their hands tied down the road. The problem is, I WANT their hands tied (at that time, in that specific area). I'm only one vote, but I'm basically unwilling to budge in that one area. Once the used car salesman gets you to name a number, he has somewhere from which to work.
Not to point any fingers, but I have noticed Slow and Sailing go silent when asked the direct question about reducing DCI flying. So, would either of you confirm (or guess, if you really don't know) that our MEC would also support Statement B above?
![FlyZ is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post