Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-05-2012, 07:25 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
That's pretty cool that DAL is recycling. Probably not gonna pay off any significant debt with the proceeds, but I think it is a nice responsible thing to do. So where do you live? I don't know if they are doing it in MCO though.
04-05-2012, 07:40 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 121
This article posted from the 717 thread is very interesting and ominous.
Pinnacle Airlines will be relying primarily on 50-seat regional jets to carry it out of bankruptcy and until at least July 2022, when its newly revised contract to operate them for Delta Air Lines expires, even though the 50-seater market is shrinking and has a long-term future that is suspect at best.
That might not be the best foundation on which to build a future, but it may be the best option for the nearer-term survival of Pinnacle, the parent company for regional carriers Pinnacle Airlines, Colgan Air and Mesaba Airlines, or buy it time to transition to bigger aircraft. Memphis, Tenn.-based Pinnacle says in its bankruptcy court filings that its CRJ-200 contract with Delta is one of only two capacity purchase agreements at the regional carrier that are “potentially viable.”
The other is a contract to fly 41 CRJ-900s for Delta—all of which are under Delta lease—that also lasts until July 2022. For Delta, those aircraft are used in a two-class configuration with 76 seats, but can carry 90 passengers in an all-coach configuration.
As part of the restructuring, Pinnacle and Delta reached an agreement on early termination of a separate contract to operate 16 Pinnacle-owned CRJ-900 aircraft for Delta, which will wind down that flying over a five-month period that begins in January 2013.
Pinnacle is not yet saying what it plans to do with those 16 aircraft as they come off the Delta contract, so it is not clear whether they will remain in its fleet. The regional airline, however, definitely is getting rid of all of its Bombardier Q400 and Saab aircraft.
That means, by mid-2013, it might only be flying those 140 50-seat CRJ-200 aircraft and anywhere from 41 to 57 of the CRJ-900s.
The number of CRJ-200s is likely to dwindle between now and 2022: Under the newly revised Delta-Pinnacle capacity purchase agreement on the CRJ-200s, Delta can remove CRJ-200 aircraft from Pinnacle’s fleet, effective on the expiration date of Delta’s financing arrangement for each aircraft.
*************
Pinnacle will not disclose the timing or number. Delta also can reduce the number, on a one-to-one basis, if it reaches agreements with Pinnacle for flying more regional jets with 70 or more seats. ***********
A profitable future for the 50-seaters at Pinnacle depends on what rate Delta pays for them and how much Pinnacle can lower its costs, says Ray Neidl, a Maxim Group analyst.
“There still will be a need for 50-seaters, just not as many as are out there [now],” Neidl says. The 50-seater is not a growth market, he adds, “but at this point in time they [Pinnacle] are just trying to survive. Their fate is in the hands of Delta and, I guess, their employees.”
The newly revised contracts with Delta for the operation of the CRJ-200s and 41 CRJ-900s modifies the rates paid by Delta and eliminates the 2013 rate reset and pilot rate reset, which would have increased the amount of Delta’s payments.
Those pilot rate resets were going to be based on pilot pay raises that Pinnacle is seeking to eliminate under its bankruptcy restructuring. That makes the outcome of Pinnacle’s negotiations with its employee labor unions even more important—or, absent a voluntary deal, a Pinnacle request for the court to allow a rejection of the existing agreements and imposition of new terms.
Tom Wychor, chairman of the Pinnacle Master Executive Council (MEC) for the Air Line Pilots Association, said April 2 that union members “are always willing to sit down with management to find solutions to actual problems,” but he adds that “these solutions need to maintain contract standards that make this a career worth having.”
Pinnacle is planning to meet with members of the MEC next week.
------------------
The picture is getting clearer and clearer isnt it........................
Pinnacle Airlines will be relying primarily on 50-seat regional jets to carry it out of bankruptcy and until at least July 2022, when its newly revised contract to operate them for Delta Air Lines expires, even though the 50-seater market is shrinking and has a long-term future that is suspect at best.
That might not be the best foundation on which to build a future, but it may be the best option for the nearer-term survival of Pinnacle, the parent company for regional carriers Pinnacle Airlines, Colgan Air and Mesaba Airlines, or buy it time to transition to bigger aircraft. Memphis, Tenn.-based Pinnacle says in its bankruptcy court filings that its CRJ-200 contract with Delta is one of only two capacity purchase agreements at the regional carrier that are “potentially viable.”
The other is a contract to fly 41 CRJ-900s for Delta—all of which are under Delta lease—that also lasts until July 2022. For Delta, those aircraft are used in a two-class configuration with 76 seats, but can carry 90 passengers in an all-coach configuration.
As part of the restructuring, Pinnacle and Delta reached an agreement on early termination of a separate contract to operate 16 Pinnacle-owned CRJ-900 aircraft for Delta, which will wind down that flying over a five-month period that begins in January 2013.
Pinnacle is not yet saying what it plans to do with those 16 aircraft as they come off the Delta contract, so it is not clear whether they will remain in its fleet. The regional airline, however, definitely is getting rid of all of its Bombardier Q400 and Saab aircraft.
That means, by mid-2013, it might only be flying those 140 50-seat CRJ-200 aircraft and anywhere from 41 to 57 of the CRJ-900s.
The number of CRJ-200s is likely to dwindle between now and 2022: Under the newly revised Delta-Pinnacle capacity purchase agreement on the CRJ-200s, Delta can remove CRJ-200 aircraft from Pinnacle’s fleet, effective on the expiration date of Delta’s financing arrangement for each aircraft.
*************
Pinnacle will not disclose the timing or number. Delta also can reduce the number, on a one-to-one basis, if it reaches agreements with Pinnacle for flying more regional jets with 70 or more seats. ***********
A profitable future for the 50-seaters at Pinnacle depends on what rate Delta pays for them and how much Pinnacle can lower its costs, says Ray Neidl, a Maxim Group analyst.
“There still will be a need for 50-seaters, just not as many as are out there [now],” Neidl says. The 50-seater is not a growth market, he adds, “but at this point in time they [Pinnacle] are just trying to survive. Their fate is in the hands of Delta and, I guess, their employees.”
The newly revised contracts with Delta for the operation of the CRJ-200s and 41 CRJ-900s modifies the rates paid by Delta and eliminates the 2013 rate reset and pilot rate reset, which would have increased the amount of Delta’s payments.
Those pilot rate resets were going to be based on pilot pay raises that Pinnacle is seeking to eliminate under its bankruptcy restructuring. That makes the outcome of Pinnacle’s negotiations with its employee labor unions even more important—or, absent a voluntary deal, a Pinnacle request for the court to allow a rejection of the existing agreements and imposition of new terms.
Tom Wychor, chairman of the Pinnacle Master Executive Council (MEC) for the Air Line Pilots Association, said April 2 that union members “are always willing to sit down with management to find solutions to actual problems,” but he adds that “these solutions need to maintain contract standards that make this a career worth having.”
Pinnacle is planning to meet with members of the MEC next week.
------------------
The picture is getting clearer and clearer isnt it........................
04-05-2012, 07:48 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
That was an interesting piece and illustrates just how much may be in play world-wide, let alone in the US.
Clearly consolidation is on many CEOs minds and I'm glad RA is at Delta. I think there is a window that's open now of unusual opportunity to acquire another carrier(s) and position Delta for the future.
It also lends credence to the notion that RA wants to get a pilot deal done fast so that wouldn't be an impediment to securing financing from Wall Street.
I don't mean to be too negative, but what does concern me is if DALPA buys in to the necessity for a fast deal, will they leave something on the table, and perhaps more importantly, as contractual language is nailed down they will agree to less than ironclad language. That's happened before and we as pilots pay the price for the mistakes of ALPA's "best and brightest" legal team.
Clearly consolidation is on many CEOs minds and I'm glad RA is at Delta. I think there is a window that's open now of unusual opportunity to acquire another carrier(s) and position Delta for the future.
It also lends credence to the notion that RA wants to get a pilot deal done fast so that wouldn't be an impediment to securing financing from Wall Street.
I don't mean to be too negative, but what does concern me is if DALPA buys in to the necessity for a fast deal, will they leave something on the table, and perhaps more importantly, as contractual language is nailed down they will agree to less than ironclad language. That's happened before and we as pilots pay the price for the mistakes of ALPA's "best and brightest" legal team.
04-05-2012, 07:55 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Does every thread about Delta now have to include every article about Pinnacle? I know we are tied together, but don't they have their own threads?
04-05-2012, 07:56 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
In other words, instead of nuking the place, Delta has an off the books pseudo subsidiary that it had absolute operational control over. All Pinnacle is, is a temp crew provider for DELTA's newest CRJ 200's.
ALPA should recognize it as what it is, the latest form of alter ego.
04-05-2012, 08:11 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
This article definitely makes you think about the whole global picture and what might be going on in our managements mind:
British Airways
British Airways
Walsh may need to take stakes in ailing American Airlines and Japan Airlines Co. in order to keep the two carriers in the Oneworld alliance.
I'd be optimistic that we could get a decent Joint Venture / production balance, which might help both us and Delta management.
04-05-2012, 08:23 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Right now we are at the mercy of a JV being a Profit Sharing agreement, if it is only revenue sharing, there is not one thing we can do. The only saving grace is those flights that are under the agreement can not be reduced. For us that is eight cities served in the US from NRT, the rest would go. Suffice to say, we need to keep our current level in Asia and grow from there, without that, it is a loss of at least 500 or more pilot jobs.
04-05-2012, 08:26 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Sorry Posted this in the wrong thread:
By Andrew Compart
Pinnacle Airlines will be relying primarily on 50-seat regional jets to carry it out of bankruptcy and until at least July 2022, when its newly revised contract to operate them for Delta Air Lines expires, even though the 50-seater market is shrinking and has a long-term future that is suspect at best.
That might not be the best foundation on which to build a future, but it may be the best option for the nearer-term survival of Pinnacle, the parent company for regional carriers Pinnacle Airlines, Colgan Air and Mesaba Airlines, or buy it time to transition to bigger aircraft. Memphis, Tenn.-based Pinnacle says in its bankruptcy court filings that its CRJ-200 contract with Delta is one of only two capacity purchase agreements at the regional carrier that are “potentially viable.”
The other is a contract to fly 41 CRJ-900s for Delta—all of which are under Delta lease—that also lasts until July 2022. For Delta, those aircraft are used in a two-class configuration with 76 seats, but can carry 90 passengers in an all-coach configuration.
As part of the restructuring, Pinnacle and Delta reached an agreement on early termination of a separate contract to operate 16 Pinnacle-owned CRJ-900 aircraft for Delta, which will wind down that flying over a five-month period that begins in January 2013.
Pinnacle is not yet saying what it plans to do with those 16 aircraft as they come off the Delta contract, so it is not clear whether they will remain in its fleet. The regional airline, however, definitely is getting rid of all of its Bombardier Q400 and Saab aircraft.
That means, by mid-2013, it might only be flying those 140 50-seat CRJ-200 aircraft and anywhere from 41 to 57 of the CRJ-900s.
The number of CRJ-200s is likely to dwindle between now and 2022: Under the newly revised Delta-Pinnacle capacity purchase agreement on the CRJ-200s, Delta can remove CRJ-200 aircraft from Pinnacle’s fleet, effective on the expiration date of Delta’s financing arrangement for each aircraft.
Pinnacle will not disclose the timing or number. Delta also can reduce the number, on a one-to-one basis, if it reaches agreements with Pinnacle for flying more regional jets with 70 or more seats.
A profitable future for the 50-seaters at Pinnacle depends on what rate Delta pays for them and how much Pinnacle can lower its costs, says Ray Neidl, a Maxim Group analyst.
“There still will be a need for 50-seaters, just not as many as are out there [now],” Neidl says. The 50-seater is not a growth market, he adds, “but at this point in time they [Pinnacle] are just trying to survive. Their fate is in the hands of Delta and, I guess, their employees.”
The newly revised contracts with Delta for the operation of the CRJ-200s and 41 CRJ-900s modifies the rates paid by Delta and eliminates the 2013 rate reset and pilot rate reset, which would have increased the amount of Delta’s payments.
Those pilot rate resets were going to be based on pilot pay raises that Pinnacle is seeking to eliminate under its bankruptcy restructuring. That makes the outcome of Pinnacle’s negotiations with its employee labor unions even more important—or, absent a voluntary deal, a Pinnacle request for the court to allow a rejection of the existing agreements and imposition of new terms.
Tom Wychor, chairman of the Pinnacle Master Executive Council (MEC) for the Air Line Pilots Association, said April 2 that union members “are always willing to sit down with management to find solutions to actual problems,” but he adds that “these solutions need to maintain contract standards that make this a career worth having.”
Pinnacle is planning to meet with members of the MEC next week.
Photo: airteamimages.com
Pinnacle To Rely On Small Jets For Survival | AVIATION WEEK
By Andrew Compart
Pinnacle Airlines will be relying primarily on 50-seat regional jets to carry it out of bankruptcy and until at least July 2022, when its newly revised contract to operate them for Delta Air Lines expires, even though the 50-seater market is shrinking and has a long-term future that is suspect at best.
That might not be the best foundation on which to build a future, but it may be the best option for the nearer-term survival of Pinnacle, the parent company for regional carriers Pinnacle Airlines, Colgan Air and Mesaba Airlines, or buy it time to transition to bigger aircraft. Memphis, Tenn.-based Pinnacle says in its bankruptcy court filings that its CRJ-200 contract with Delta is one of only two capacity purchase agreements at the regional carrier that are “potentially viable.”
The other is a contract to fly 41 CRJ-900s for Delta—all of which are under Delta lease—that also lasts until July 2022. For Delta, those aircraft are used in a two-class configuration with 76 seats, but can carry 90 passengers in an all-coach configuration.
As part of the restructuring, Pinnacle and Delta reached an agreement on early termination of a separate contract to operate 16 Pinnacle-owned CRJ-900 aircraft for Delta, which will wind down that flying over a five-month period that begins in January 2013.
Pinnacle is not yet saying what it plans to do with those 16 aircraft as they come off the Delta contract, so it is not clear whether they will remain in its fleet. The regional airline, however, definitely is getting rid of all of its Bombardier Q400 and Saab aircraft.
That means, by mid-2013, it might only be flying those 140 50-seat CRJ-200 aircraft and anywhere from 41 to 57 of the CRJ-900s.
The number of CRJ-200s is likely to dwindle between now and 2022: Under the newly revised Delta-Pinnacle capacity purchase agreement on the CRJ-200s, Delta can remove CRJ-200 aircraft from Pinnacle’s fleet, effective on the expiration date of Delta’s financing arrangement for each aircraft.
Pinnacle will not disclose the timing or number. Delta also can reduce the number, on a one-to-one basis, if it reaches agreements with Pinnacle for flying more regional jets with 70 or more seats.
A profitable future for the 50-seaters at Pinnacle depends on what rate Delta pays for them and how much Pinnacle can lower its costs, says Ray Neidl, a Maxim Group analyst.
“There still will be a need for 50-seaters, just not as many as are out there [now],” Neidl says. The 50-seater is not a growth market, he adds, “but at this point in time they [Pinnacle] are just trying to survive. Their fate is in the hands of Delta and, I guess, their employees.”
The newly revised contracts with Delta for the operation of the CRJ-200s and 41 CRJ-900s modifies the rates paid by Delta and eliminates the 2013 rate reset and pilot rate reset, which would have increased the amount of Delta’s payments.
Those pilot rate resets were going to be based on pilot pay raises that Pinnacle is seeking to eliminate under its bankruptcy restructuring. That makes the outcome of Pinnacle’s negotiations with its employee labor unions even more important—or, absent a voluntary deal, a Pinnacle request for the court to allow a rejection of the existing agreements and imposition of new terms.
Tom Wychor, chairman of the Pinnacle Master Executive Council (MEC) for the Air Line Pilots Association, said April 2 that union members “are always willing to sit down with management to find solutions to actual problems,” but he adds that “these solutions need to maintain contract standards that make this a career worth having.”
Pinnacle is planning to meet with members of the MEC next week.
Photo: airteamimages.com
Pinnacle To Rely On Small Jets For Survival | AVIATION WEEK
04-05-2012, 08:49 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
I don't know if padre is real but we ignore the "padre" segment of our pilot group at our own peril.
They are out there.
There are several different variations of padre.
Some dream of moving into management. (or already think of themselves as management because they are "Captains")
Some want to be union honchos and think managing expectations is their mission.
Some derive their satisfaction, pride and self worth from the corporation's success. They regularly wear Delta ball caps and clothing when they are not at work and have a Delta bumper sticker on their car. The bankruptcy nearly killed them.
Others have a blue collar mentality, live modestly and frugally, already make more money than their neighbors and can't understand why anyone needs to make more than $150,000 to live a comfortable life. They may even feel guilty about their compensation.
[b]We need those people. We need their votes. We should calmly and rationally refute their arguments. Explain to them why airline pilots should be highly compensated professionals and why the current level of compensation is grossly inadequate for our training, skill level and responsibilities.[b]
They are out there.
There are several different variations of padre.
Some dream of moving into management. (or already think of themselves as management because they are "Captains")
Some want to be union honchos and think managing expectations is their mission.
Some derive their satisfaction, pride and self worth from the corporation's success. They regularly wear Delta ball caps and clothing when they are not at work and have a Delta bumper sticker on their car. The bankruptcy nearly killed them.
Others have a blue collar mentality, live modestly and frugally, already make more money than their neighbors and can't understand why anyone needs to make more than $150,000 to live a comfortable life. They may even feel guilty about their compensation.
[b]We need those people. We need their votes. We should calmly and rationally refute their arguments. Explain to them why airline pilots should be highly compensated professionals and why the current level of compensation is grossly inadequate for our training, skill level and responsibilities.[b]
I don't know who "we" is, or what your own purpose is in getting votes, but I'm going to assume you want pilots to vote for a good contract, and vote down a turd. In which case you're almost making a truly great point.
The conversation on APC would have you believe that anyone on here has to be either a Crip or a Blood, which enables some classic (and ultimately unsuccessful) debating techniques. Using a broad brush to paint another, frees you to show contempt for the person, and by extension, dismiss their arguments.
But I don't think the pilots that vote fit neatly into categories, even if you expand the list as you just did. I think this pilot group, compliant as it often seems, values independent thinking. We may vote for or against a contract together, but we like to arrive at our conclusions on our own terms. What else should we expect from people that can manage their own affairs, as well as their cockpit, with such consistently favorable outcomes?
So I certainly think you have a point: pilots will respond to a calm and rational argument. But where you might be wrong is to assume that every "yes voter" category is some version of either a dimwit or a management suck-up. I know you didn't use those terms, but if I read back through the categories, you're not accounting for people that are independent, intelligent, and not swayed by sentimentality for the company, or by union power-struggles, or attempts to define for them what they need in a contract. Those people will respond to a coherent argument, and will also defy attempts to pin them down to a particular allegiance or color. They don't need an explanation for their demands: they know they should be compensated much better, considering their skills.
Whenever we vote (invariably "for"), there is always an element of surprise on the internet, where we feel betrayed by "yes voters". It never occurs to anyone to go back to the moment when the boards/forums started valuing perceived allegiances and labels, over logic. I think we're there. Again.
I must admit I'm guilty of falling into the trap. After being called an apologist, and an insider, by people I am intimately convinced are mere mouthpieces, it's hard to resist classifying some into camps. That tells me the conversation needs a reset. I tried to suggest sending those that want to get into the DPA stuff elsewhere, so we could look at issues, but I failed in that argument. So I'll try the ignore function, and take a break.
I'd like to thank those that contribute facts, news, and humor, which is what I come here for. Those bits have become scarce, which only makes them that much more enjoyable.
Later,
Sink r8.
Last edited by Sink r8; 04-05-2012 at 09:09 AM.
04-05-2012, 09:06 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 121
The reason for posting the article was to point out the fact that the new pinnacle agreement has mechanisms for increasing 70seaters at the expense of 50 seaters. this ties in with management wanting a scope sale in exchange for 717 and bastian saying at a conference call that they may have a solution to the 50seater issue. The stars are aligning and DALPA better see this.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
