Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-02-2012, 06:45 AM
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
04-02-2012, 06:51 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
The math is using the 2009 Form 41 data and adding SWA pay raises to their numbers, and the same for us. In order to take DC into account, I assumed both pilots contributed 2% into their DC. Both pilots in that case would see 2% less in their paycheck and the Delta pilot would receive 12% more in his DC. The SWA pilot can receive more DC if he subtracts more current pay, but I didn't choose to run the numbers that way. Doing that math, it looks like they are about 23.5% ahead on pay, and 12% behind on DC. Combine the two and you are close to the Roger number of 11%.
So, like some (88) here say, there is more to it than straight hourly wages. I agree with that. That could be why you have friends with great W2s. What's the explanation for that? Maybe SWA pilots work more than us. Using the same year Form 41 data, they do. The average SWA pilot flew 59.9 hours a month in 2009, and the average Delta pilot flew 42.5. If they are flying 40% more than us, they should be making more money.
Compare a NB domestic only DAL crew that flies similar trips to SWA, like the 88, to SWA.
So why are they flying more? Our contract is not as efficient, we spend time upgrading and doing WW ops, and transitioning to different aircraft, and sitting around for the plane we fly to show up so we can work. We could probably create a more efficient contract and be able to fly 59.9 hours a month, thereby increasing our W2s, but then 88 is not going to be an 88 captain. He's going to be a 767FO because we get rid of the bottom 2000 pilots.
So we are not in total disagreement. If both carrier's pilots flew the same number of hours as a Delta pilot averages, we'd need about an 11% pay raise to match SWA. If we flew as many of those hours as a SWA pilot, we'd make their W2.
Does that make sense?
So we are not in total disagreement. If both carrier's pilots flew the same number of hours as a Delta pilot averages, we'd need about an 11% pay raise to match SWA. If we flew as many of those hours as a SWA pilot, we'd make their W2.
Does that make sense?
04-02-2012, 06:53 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 243
The math is using the 2009 Form 41 data and adding SWA pay raises to their numbers, and the same for us. In order to take DC into account, I assumed both pilots contributed 2% into their DC. Both pilots in that case would see 2% less in their paycheck and the Delta pilot would receive 12% more in his DC. The SWA pilot can receive more DC if he subtracts more current pay, but I didn't choose to run the numbers that way. Doing that math, it looks like they are about 23.5% ahead on pay, and 12% behind on DC. Combine the two and you are close to the Roger number of 11%.
So, like some (88) here say, there is more to it than straight hourly wages. I agree with that. That could be why you have friends with great W2s. What's the explanation for that? Maybe SWA pilots work more than us. Using the same year Form 41 data, they do. The average SWA pilot flew 59.9 hours a month in 2009, and the average Delta pilot flew 42.5. If they are flying 40% more than us, they should be making more money.
So why are they flying more? Our contract is not as efficient, we spend time upgrading and doing WW ops, and transitioning to different aircraft, and sitting around for the plane we fly to show up so we can work. We could probably create a more efficient contract and be able to fly 59.9 hours a month, thereby increasing our W2s, but then 88 is not going to be an 88 captain. He's going to be a 767FO because we get rid of the bottom 2000 pilots.
So we are not in total disagreement. If both carrier's pilots flew the same number of hours as a Delta pilot averages, we'd need about an 11% pay raise to match SWA. If we flew as many of those hours as a SWA pilot, we'd make their W2.
Does that make sense?
So, like some (88) here say, there is more to it than straight hourly wages. I agree with that. That could be why you have friends with great W2s. What's the explanation for that? Maybe SWA pilots work more than us. Using the same year Form 41 data, they do. The average SWA pilot flew 59.9 hours a month in 2009, and the average Delta pilot flew 42.5. If they are flying 40% more than us, they should be making more money.
So why are they flying more? Our contract is not as efficient, we spend time upgrading and doing WW ops, and transitioning to different aircraft, and sitting around for the plane we fly to show up so we can work. We could probably create a more efficient contract and be able to fly 59.9 hours a month, thereby increasing our W2s, but then 88 is not going to be an 88 captain. He's going to be a 767FO because we get rid of the bottom 2000 pilots.
So we are not in total disagreement. If both carrier's pilots flew the same number of hours as a Delta pilot averages, we'd need about an 11% pay raise to match SWA. If we flew as many of those hours as a SWA pilot, we'd make their W2.
Does that make sense?
04-02-2012, 07:01 AM
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2010
Posts: 31
7-Leg Day
WOW.
May Rotation 9617 for MSP DC-9B has a seven-leg day.
7:18 Blk, longest turn is 42 minutes.
11:05 LAYO the night before, 10:22 the night of.
It will be interesting to see if this becomes a way-of-life for the ATL DC-9.
May Rotation 9617 for MSP DC-9B has a seven-leg day.
7:18 Blk, longest turn is 42 minutes.
11:05 LAYO the night before, 10:22 the night of.
It will be interesting to see if this becomes a way-of-life for the ATL DC-9.
04-02-2012, 07:08 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Also Padre, instead of 2009 numbers look at the current pay rates. How are you getting a 23.5% difference?
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...ally-make.html
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...ally-make.html
04-02-2012, 07:13 AM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: going to Boeing Dog...
Posts: 49
04-02-2012, 07:21 AM
Sho me da money!
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: B25, Left
Posts: 947
First of all, it's "ill-effects". Secondly, who's talking about the ill-effects of Delta? What does that even mean?
Many pilots have given up on ALPA/DALPA. So much so, they don't care about getting communications that they believe is mostly lies and spin. MSNBC doesn't have my email address for the same reason.
How about this one: The elected reps say they've heard our voices loud and clear, and as such, they will expect nothing less than an industry leading contract. The MEC comes out and says: We're going for a "superior contract".
Regardless, that ship has sailed. We couldn't get enough cards in time for the "opener" to be exchanged. So if you want to continue to insult your fellow pilots who wanted a different union, do so on the other thread. I don't know how many times I have to tell you this.
Carl
Many pilots have given up on ALPA/DALPA. So much so, they don't care about getting communications that they believe is mostly lies and spin. MSNBC doesn't have my email address for the same reason.
How about this one: The elected reps say they've heard our voices loud and clear, and as such, they will expect nothing less than an industry leading contract. The MEC comes out and says: We're going for a "superior contract".
Regardless, that ship has sailed. We couldn't get enough cards in time for the "opener" to be exchanged. So if you want to continue to insult your fellow pilots who wanted a different union, do so on the other thread. I don't know how many times I have to tell you this.
Carl
Oh man Carl!! Tell me you are not a Fixed news fan? MSNBC is out there but the polar opposite is insulting on the 10th degree! But when fixed news hires Geraldo Pico Rivera just to offset the 2016 Democratic nominee Al "I cut myself "Sharpton you have to wonder. or at least go huh?
I like my Intl layovers. At least the world media BBC etc has a balanced POV. The US of course is all about the Michael Moore method of SLING and ZING and like MSNBC, Fixed news is leading the pack under the highly ethical Murdoch. Sorry for the rant, I have not had my coffee yet!
Now back to TOSH.O!
04-02-2012, 07:25 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,590
The myths about SW get better and better. The minimums at SW are nice. A 3 day trip pays 16 hours and 50 minutes minimum which is 19.5 trips. Their system makes it simple and easy to schedule those days so credit is not found on many trips. The average pilot flies 105 trips a month working 14 to 15 days or so. The average line is around 90 TRP each month and works around 12.5 days before pickups to get to 105. The average SW pilot works around 12 days a month after sick, reserve, mil leave and vacation. The average average Delta pilot works less after those same things are factored in. I don't remember exactly the trip pay however its around 185 per trip at SW. Hourly is around 212 per hour however different sources use different conversions. 212 is close. There contract is up soon like ours.
04-02-2012, 07:35 AM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: going to Boeing Dog...
Posts: 49
7 leg day...
Now That's a killer rotation. Working 7:30am to 7:30pm with nothing more than potty breaks...
on the second thought, I'll delete things from i crew....
on the second thought, I'll delete things from i crew....
04-02-2012, 07:54 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Also Padre, instead of 2009 numbers look at the current pay rates. How are you getting a 23.5% difference?
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...ally-make.html
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...ally-make.html
I know people claim we're not as efficient with pilot use as a SWA, and there is truth to that in many regards but at the same time we have PBS. Period. Do the two offset?
And is some of this efficiency stuff out of our hands because of the horrendous amount of outsourcing? We do a lot of 30 hour layovers on the 88 because the city served is only served on the last flight of the day and first morning flight.
So can we really compare efficiency with our scope clause vs theirs?
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