Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
03-22-2012, 09:45 AM
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Joined APC: Dec 2009
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Fly,
My quote was taken from the announcement that Mullin was leaving Delta. He had been fired.
Giving Mullin credit is like me crashing on every single maneuver and managing to get more sim time before Delta fired me. The Feds gave us another six months of life, as did B of A. Leo and Fred burned all of that, and in the process let Michelle fund such Delta marketing initiatives as a book tour of the writer of "Secrets of a Gay Marine Porn Star" and "youth Pride."
Was he evil and vindictive in the form of a Lorenzo? No, he was just greedy and incompetent.
Conservatively, Delta Connection cost us 25 Billion and a few thousand jobs. In all fairness, Malone should have let a furloughed Marine write Leo's love letter, without editing. IM(somewhat educated)O, Mullin set this Company on a course for bankruptcy reorganization as far back as 2001-2001. If you look back at his speeches, they were full of statements like "new cost paradigm" and he was saying "it does not matter what we spend, our competitors will match us." Worked great for Contract 2000, but a good case can be made that he never intended to honor that agreement in good faith.
Among our MEC Chairmen, Malone was probably one of the better ones. My comment was just contrasting the ridiculousness of the argument.
My quote was taken from the announcement that Mullin was leaving Delta. He had been fired.
Giving Mullin credit is like me crashing on every single maneuver and managing to get more sim time before Delta fired me. The Feds gave us another six months of life, as did B of A. Leo and Fred burned all of that, and in the process let Michelle fund such Delta marketing initiatives as a book tour of the writer of "Secrets of a Gay Marine Porn Star" and "youth Pride."
Was he evil and vindictive in the form of a Lorenzo? No, he was just greedy and incompetent.
Conservatively, Delta Connection cost us 25 Billion and a few thousand jobs. In all fairness, Malone should have let a furloughed Marine write Leo's love letter, without editing. IM(somewhat educated)O, Mullin set this Company on a course for bankruptcy reorganization as far back as 2001-2001. If you look back at his speeches, they were full of statements like "new cost paradigm" and he was saying "it does not matter what we spend, our competitors will match us." Worked great for Contract 2000, but a good case can be made that he never intended to honor that agreement in good faith.
Among our MEC Chairmen, Malone was probably one of the better ones. My comment was just contrasting the ridiculousness of the argument.
03-22-2012, 10:56 AM
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You didn't answer the last 7 times I posted about this because you lied once again. Blatantly, bald-faced lied. You should be ashamed, but I guess your flight pay loss for this type of "volunteering" takes away any shame.
I not only watched it, I posted it. You on the other hand, lied about what was in it in the hopes we would just believe you. The PowerPoint says NOTHING of what you claim. My reps tell me that the NMB said NOTHING close to what you claim. I've repeatedly asked you to post any evidence from the PowerPoint or from anyone who was in the room. You did nothing but slink away in the hopes people would forget about your shameful lie.
Yes they did. But that's not what you claimed. You claimed that the NMB "made it clear to us" that if we wanted to be tough (as defined by you I guess), the NMB was prepared to park us and make this a very long process. The NMB said NO SUCH THING.
Carl
I not only watched it, I posted it. You on the other hand, lied about what was in it in the hopes we would just believe you. The PowerPoint says NOTHING of what you claim. My reps tell me that the NMB said NOTHING close to what you claim. I've repeatedly asked you to post any evidence from the PowerPoint or from anyone who was in the room. You did nothing but slink away in the hopes people would forget about your shameful lie.
Yes they did. But that's not what you claimed. You claimed that the NMB "made it clear to us" that if we wanted to be tough (as defined by you I guess), the NMB was prepared to park us and make this a very long process. The NMB said NO SUCH THING.
Carl
At the open session brief with Linda Puchala, she told the MEC in a round about manner:
1. You are too big to strike.
2. Any representational questions (DPA) will lead to inaction and withdrawal on the NMB's part.
3. The Delta pilot group might make the appearance of progress down the path towards a release by the NMB, but at the end there are the two last steps.
A. If there is a PEB, the President will put you back to work.
B. After a PEB the Delta pilots might think that congress would never be able to act fast enough to put us back to work through legislation. Linda said, put that out of your mind. The legislation is written with the Delta pilot's name already filled in the blank.
This underscores the importance of making gains outside the normal Section 6 process
03-22-2012, 11:03 AM
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Posts: 248
Here's what I'm talking about bigbusdriver...This is the entire Page 16 that you refer to from the NMB's PowerPoint presentation to DALPA and management:
-----------------------------------------------
Typical Contract Bargaining
...............Cycle
Calculate the time between amendable dates:
ADD:
+ Negotiations Prep after amendable date=0
+ Time in Direct Negotiations=18 months
+ Time in RLA Mediation= 29 months
+ Time in Ratification Process=1 month
+ Time Until Next Amendable Date=4 years
Contract Bargaining Cycle = 8 years
----------------------------------------------
Do you see the title of this slide? Notice that it says typical contract bargaining cycle? This entire briefing by the NMB was to give everyone involved a historical perspective of negotiations and the NMB's role if they are called in. If the NMB gets involved, their typical time in the process is 29 months.
Now, contrast that with the lie that sailingfun tried to perpetrate here on this forum by saying this:
The NMB said NO SUCH THING. Sailingfun simply lied about it. Why he would do that is anyone's guess. The fact that he is one of the paid "volunteer leakers" of the MEC bureaucracy should be troubling to everyone. Why does the MEC want to lower expectations so badly, they send out a leaker to state something so totally false?
Carl
-----------------------------------------------
Typical Contract Bargaining
...............Cycle
Calculate the time between amendable dates:
ADD:
+ Negotiations Prep after amendable date=0
+ Time in Direct Negotiations=18 months
+ Time in RLA Mediation= 29 months
+ Time in Ratification Process=1 month
+ Time Until Next Amendable Date=4 years
Contract Bargaining Cycle = 8 years
----------------------------------------------
Do you see the title of this slide? Notice that it says typical contract bargaining cycle? This entire briefing by the NMB was to give everyone involved a historical perspective of negotiations and the NMB's role if they are called in. If the NMB gets involved, their typical time in the process is 29 months.
Now, contrast that with the lie that sailingfun tried to perpetrate here on this forum by saying this:
The NMB said NO SUCH THING. Sailingfun simply lied about it. Why he would do that is anyone's guess. The fact that he is one of the paid "volunteer leakers" of the MEC bureaucracy should be troubling to everyone. Why does the MEC want to lower expectations so badly, they send out a leaker to state something so totally false?
Carl
Now Siri, my new best friend says APA has been negotiating since September of 2006. And Continental since the summer of 2007. Almost 5 years! Amazing!
Pinnacle and ASA both had negotiations of over 5 years if memory serves (too lazy to Siri it) which leads to a fairly good prediction that if we are going for restoration and serious scope clean up, (the latter of which I am a single issue voter on) it could easily be 5 years plus and then a lot of walking in circles.
Anyway, you should know how the process works, I don't know why I'm having to type this.
03-22-2012, 11:07 AM
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03-22-2012, 11:19 AM
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03-22-2012, 11:23 AM
Da Hudge
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03-22-2012, 11:23 AM
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Carl you and I both know that anything worth doing might take sometime. It is not worth arguing over it. Looking at the other airlines dealing with the same predicament it probably will be a while. We all know how it works so I wouldn't worry about convincing everyone. You will get your blood pressure up and won't get to vote on the TA one day when it does get here. 
03-22-2012, 11:29 AM
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Carl, Find my post where I said anything about being tough. By the way here is what my rep emailed me about the meeting. Go back and ask your reps if he is lying. Please note this was a open session. A friend in attendance confirmed essentially the same things.
At the open session brief with Linda Puchala, she told the MEC in a round about manner:
1. You are too big to strike.
2. Any representational questions (DPA) will lead to inaction and withdrawal on the NMB's part.
3. The Delta pilot group might make the appearance of progress down the path towards a release by the NMB, but at the end there are the two last steps.
A. If there is a PEB, the President will put you back to work.
B. After a PEB the Delta pilots might think that congress would never be able to act fast enough to put us back to work through legislation. Linda said, put that out of your mind. The legislation is written with the Delta pilot's name already filled in the blank.
This underscores the importance of making gains outside the normal Section 6 process
At the open session brief with Linda Puchala, she told the MEC in a round about manner:
1. You are too big to strike.
2. Any representational questions (DPA) will lead to inaction and withdrawal on the NMB's part.
3. The Delta pilot group might make the appearance of progress down the path towards a release by the NMB, but at the end there are the two last steps.
A. If there is a PEB, the President will put you back to work.
B. After a PEB the Delta pilots might think that congress would never be able to act fast enough to put us back to work through legislation. Linda said, put that out of your mind. The legislation is written with the Delta pilot's name already filled in the blank.
This underscores the importance of making gains outside the normal Section 6 process
Ultimately it is up to the pilots to decide what they can live with and what's worth risking skin for. Hopefully we can raise the bar, because as you've said, all eyes are on us.
03-22-2012, 11:52 AM
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03-22-2012, 11:58 AM
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I have been here a long time. I have never seen a contract completed less then 18 months past the amendable date and those were simple compared to this contract. The NMB gave a brief to the MEC in Jan. They put the powerpoint presentation on the website with some timeline information. Every pilot should review what the NMB put out. The history of pilot contracts over the last 15 years is easily available. Nothing has happened fast. Several contracts have exceeded 5 years.
RA feels we are paid about right at the moment. He is on record stating that. He has over and over again stressed that Delta will only pay industry average wages not industry leading. If he gives us a industry leading contract he is going to have to follow up by doing the same for all employees or face having Delta once again become a very poor performing airline. The cost would be very high.
His last talk at the LCA meeting he stressed improvements over time and discussed the AMR situation and what the union passed up at length. The implied message was obvious to every in attendance. If we want a 4, 4, 4, 4 contract with no change in other areas we can have it done close to the amendable date. I will not accept that type of contract and I doubt the majority of the pilot group will accept it.
This forum makes light of pilot costs as a issue in the success of the airline. I can assure you that management has a vastly different view. This is a brutal industry selling a commodity. When you sell a commodity you had better be priced within pennies of the competition or your not going to last. The gains this pilot group wants and deserves are not going to come easy or quick. Its going to be a long hard struggle over many years. To believe anything else is a fantasy.
A year ago I would have given us a much better chance of a quick contract. I thought AMR would get a deal done as well as UAL/CAL. It now appears they are both going no where fast or in the case of AMR no where good. A lot has changed. Prepare yourself for a long fight. Get set financially. If Delta does not meet your needs and you have better options now I would jump all over that. I will hopefully only be around another 3 years. I am about done with my career and I don't want another flying job. I don't understand why the younger pilots on this forum are sticking around if they even believe half of what they post and hate the job and Delta as much as they say.
RA feels we are paid about right at the moment. He is on record stating that. He has over and over again stressed that Delta will only pay industry average wages not industry leading. If he gives us a industry leading contract he is going to have to follow up by doing the same for all employees or face having Delta once again become a very poor performing airline. The cost would be very high.
His last talk at the LCA meeting he stressed improvements over time and discussed the AMR situation and what the union passed up at length. The implied message was obvious to every in attendance. If we want a 4, 4, 4, 4 contract with no change in other areas we can have it done close to the amendable date. I will not accept that type of contract and I doubt the majority of the pilot group will accept it.
This forum makes light of pilot costs as a issue in the success of the airline. I can assure you that management has a vastly different view. This is a brutal industry selling a commodity. When you sell a commodity you had better be priced within pennies of the competition or your not going to last. The gains this pilot group wants and deserves are not going to come easy or quick. Its going to be a long hard struggle over many years. To believe anything else is a fantasy.
A year ago I would have given us a much better chance of a quick contract. I thought AMR would get a deal done as well as UAL/CAL. It now appears they are both going no where fast or in the case of AMR no where good. A lot has changed. Prepare yourself for a long fight. Get set financially. If Delta does not meet your needs and you have better options now I would jump all over that. I will hopefully only be around another 3 years. I am about done with my career and I don't want another flying job. I don't understand why the younger pilots on this forum are sticking around if they even believe half of what they post and hate the job and Delta as much as they say.
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