Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
03-14-2012, 06:04 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
If you represent pilots that consistently give direction to their reps to get more payrates first, and pilots consistently vote for contracts that do exactly that, you're going to end up with Scope erosion.
To recover, you need grassroot dissatisfaction with scope erosion, i.e. for pilots to properly prioritize. We're getting closer, but we're still just a bunch of payrate whoares.
The problem with ALPA isn't that it's failing to represent us faithfully (with some glaring exceptions, such as Age 65), but that it's faithfully representing a group that's been traditionally short-sighted.
I'm only mildly optimistic that "improving the ratio of DAL
CI" is a walking that line between the payrate whoares, in us, and those who understand a payrate doesn't matter if you don't have the job. If we could reduce the proportion of DCI flying, excluding the endangered/oscolescent/dying 50-seat flying, that would signify Scope re-capture. I don't expect that to happen all in one contract. Add stronger large-gauge/JV language, turboprop language, and stricter language on subsidiaries, and I could agree to such a T/A.At any rate, there is a thread for DPA/ALPA stuff.
03-14-2012, 06:06 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Speaking of whoares, here's something I like:
• Require ALV reduction during furlough periods
• Limit green slip flying until all furloughed pilots offered recall
• Require ALV reduction during furlough periods
• Limit green slip flying until all furloughed pilots offered recall
03-14-2012, 06:17 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Absolutely disgusted by the lack of lower end scope recapture. Sure, let them fly some 50 seaters to feed, but those 170's need to be crewed by delta pilots. When the beach is eroding you add sand back to the bank. Alpa's just assuming there will never be a storm. Once those airbus's and 737's are washed away this career is DONE. It is obvious alpa wants status quo with scope and never intended to fight back. Way too much pressure from our "union with conflicted interest". Moak represents a LOT more regionals now than he does majors. His crowd to please is NOT us!!
Alpa is 38 airlines and only 2 are majors. When are these smart pilots finally going to do the math on this? We're gonna leave alpa. It's mathematical certainty. You think SWA, ups, usair, amr are going to come back? Right now CAPA represents more mainline pilots than alpa does!! If delta pilots go to capa, capa will represent more airline pilots total than alpa! You think united will sit there holding the bag at alpa once were gone? Sit back, look at the whole view. As acl used to say...read the tea leaves. It's quite simple really.
So back to scope...if we make no headway now what happens when a judge forces us to give away the 737's and airbus's in 10-15 years. What are we going to do then?
We leave alpa, united will follow. CAPA becomes huge, representing almost all mainline pilots. Alpa will represent regional carriers and there's nothing wrong with that. CAPA will be alpa v2.0 without all the bloat. Ok rant over...
Former alpa rep and alpa board of director member.
Ask away....I have tons of stories....
Alpa is 38 airlines and only 2 are majors. When are these smart pilots finally going to do the math on this? We're gonna leave alpa. It's mathematical certainty. You think SWA, ups, usair, amr are going to come back? Right now CAPA represents more mainline pilots than alpa does!! If delta pilots go to capa, capa will represent more airline pilots total than alpa! You think united will sit there holding the bag at alpa once were gone? Sit back, look at the whole view. As acl used to say...read the tea leaves. It's quite simple really.
So back to scope...if we make no headway now what happens when a judge forces us to give away the 737's and airbus's in 10-15 years. What are we going to do then?
We leave alpa, united will follow. CAPA becomes huge, representing almost all mainline pilots. Alpa will represent regional carriers and there's nothing wrong with that. CAPA will be alpa v2.0 without all the bloat. Ok rant over...
Former alpa rep and alpa board of director member.
Ask away....I have tons of stories....
1. This was NOT the opener given to management folks. This was the highly sanitized "conceptual" version. The example of us demanding sprinklers in our hotel rooms is the level of specifics that management got in all sections. If management only got a "conceptual" opener, that part should have read: "improve hotel rooms."
2. Understand that this Section 1 position is now the High Water Mark. Negotiating in good faith will almost certainly require us to come off this crazy high water mark opening position of ours. Regarding Section1, it's very clear that it was written for us by ALPA national and the regional MEC's. They are unharmed and protected with language regarding preferential hiring.
Carl
03-14-2012, 06:18 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
APC Web Board Resolution 01-2012
Whereas: The current Section 1 opener is akin to a wife asking her husband if the blue drapes or the white drapes look better while the house is on fire.
Let it be Moved: Bullet point #1 on Scope Opener be re-written:
""Provide job security, longevity, quality of life and upgrade potential for Delta pilots by requiring all flights bearing Delta code be operated by Delta Air Lines crews"
Do I have a second?
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 03-14-2012 at 06:32 AM.
03-14-2012, 06:23 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
APC Web Board Resolution 01-2012
Whereas: The current Section 1 opener is akin to a wife asking her husband if the blue drapes or the white drapes look better while the house in on fire.
Let it be Moved: Bullet point #1 on Scope Opener be re-written:
""Provide job security, longevity, quality of life and upgrade potential for Delta pilots by requiring all flights bearing Delta code be operated by Delta Air Lines crews"
Do I have a second?
...
03-14-2012, 06:23 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 243
That's a really pessimistic stretch you're making there... How could locking the current ratio possibly be seen as "improving the balance of flying between Delta and DCI"? Yes, I hope you are wrong as well.
I was underwhelmed by the first read through, but they are addressing most of my concerns with "improve" statements, so I'll wait for the TA to make my judgement.
I was pleased to see the attempt to redefine flight time based on the door being closed.
I was underwhelmed by the first read through, but they are addressing most of my concerns with "improve" statements, so I'll wait for the TA to make my judgement.
I was pleased to see the attempt to redefine flight time based on the door being closed.
With the reductions that are currently going on in the 50 seat market at Delta all ALPA has to do is codify these reductions that the company is already making and plans to continue to make and they could call that a "WIN" and say they have "improved the balance of flying."
In reality they would have done nothing since Delta was already doing it. If there is no reduction in large permitted aircraft (the once that have limits and whose CASM threatens Mainline) then ALPA will have achieved nothing.
I, like you, have read over the opener several times and I'm not that disappointed in it with few exceptions, but Section one written in such a way that it sounds like we don't really want to "rock the boat."
Here is compensation: Significantly increase hourly rates of pay
Here is what scope should have been:
Significantly reduce the outsourcing of Delta Pilots jobs.
Seek to the maximum extent possible to have Delta Pilot fly Delta's planes and passengers.
I would have like to see Night Pay in there as well as Hazard Pay for some of our layover cities.
vpr
03-14-2012, 06:29 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
2. Understand that this Section 1 position is now the High Water Mark. Negotiating in good faith will almost certainly require us to come off this crazy high water mark opening position of ours. Regarding Section1, it's very clear that it was written for us by ALPA national and the regional MEC's. They are unharmed and protected with language regarding preferential hiring.
Carl
Carl
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 03-14-2012 at 06:41 AM.
03-14-2012, 06:45 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 243
The concept of ratios and balances with DCI was tried, and failed, in Contract 2000. So was this "holding company" language. When Delta management needed every ounce of performance from the DCI network to try to save the Company the passengers (and the pilots) allowed those provisions of Contract 2000 to be jettisoned almost immediately to save the ship. When our job protection provisions fail, we should not simply wait until the next Section 6 and renegotiate them back in again.
Our Section 1 proposal, along with numerous anecdotal accounts, tells me ALPA (specifically the Delta MEC) intends to remain in this outsourcing partnership with management.
Our Section 1 proposal, along with numerous anecdotal accounts, tells me ALPA (specifically the Delta MEC) intends to remain in this outsourcing partnership with management.
I just read the C2K scope section and I kind of wonder if Delta is headed toward the C2K numbers right now. In 2004 C2K would have allowed up to 37% of mainline block hours outsourced to DCI with 39% allowed based on the bad economy.
IMO the 37% was to high but I find it interesting that based on what Delta has been doing parking the 50 seaters, that were over bought, we could end up at close to 39% without doing anything.
I agree 100% with you that Delta pilots should fly ALL delta passengers however if that is not attainable I like the idea of a:
1. Total Aircraft Permitted Limit
2. Large Aircraft Permitted Limit
2. Block Hour Percentage Limit
3. An Available Seat Mile Limit
(All of the above should significant reductions from current levels)
I know that these limits were changed or given away subsequent to C2K but I don't think that they were the reason for the losses suffered after 911.
03-14-2012, 06:59 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
03-14-2012, 07:00 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
VPR,
The core of the issue is, "Why do we allow outsourcing at all ?"
Block hour percentages are like the alcoholic at the bar saying "I'll have one more and quit."
In our case, we have partnered with management in the outsourcing business. As Moak described it, we need DCI to make lots of money, so Delta makes lots of money, so we make lots of money. When Delta was threatened by economic turmoil, our union's first response was to allow more outsourcing to try to keep the ship afloat. ( this is why Tim Caplinger and roughly 2,000 pilots from NWA and Delta were furloughed )
What I propose is a more common sense approach. Delta pilots do Delta flying at competitive pay rates for equipment (big airplanes make big money, small airplanes make less money).
The core of the issue is, "Why do we allow outsourcing at all ?"
Block hour percentages are like the alcoholic at the bar saying "I'll have one more and quit."
In our case, we have partnered with management in the outsourcing business. As Moak described it, we need DCI to make lots of money, so Delta makes lots of money, so we make lots of money. When Delta was threatened by economic turmoil, our union's first response was to allow more outsourcing to try to keep the ship afloat. ( this is why Tim Caplinger and roughly 2,000 pilots from NWA and Delta were furloughed )
What I propose is a more common sense approach. Delta pilots do Delta flying at competitive pay rates for equipment (big airplanes make big money, small airplanes make less money).
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