Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
03-11-2012, 10:59 PM
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You have to attempt to view it from a management standpoint. They have spent five years in a reeducation campaign with the other employees that Delta will only be able to pay industry standard wages. They are correct in their cost assumptions to an extent. This is perhaps the most brutal industry around on companies that let costs get out of line.
A pilot contract that is viewed as above the abstract they have created with the other employees will lead to big problems. After our 2001 contract they had to follow up with a 17 percent raise to the mechanics when things started to get ugly there.
I suspect they will be willing to put forth a contract with some impressive numbers in the out years. They will not put out anything near what I or most pilots expect in the short term. The collapse of talks at UAL and the 1113 action at AMR will leave the company thinking and serious raises for the pilots will put their pilot costs way to high and that they will have other costs with non union employee fallout. The package they put forth will be back loaded while the package we want and deserve will have to be front loaded. I see the gap between the two as far to big to be bridged before we go to the NBM. The NMB has made it clear we can expect a very long process if we go that route.
Again this is going to be a long difficult contract with a lot of choices that have to be made. Don't start spending raises now. They may not come for 5 years.
A pilot contract that is viewed as above the abstract they have created with the other employees will lead to big problems. After our 2001 contract they had to follow up with a 17 percent raise to the mechanics when things started to get ugly there.
I suspect they will be willing to put forth a contract with some impressive numbers in the out years. They will not put out anything near what I or most pilots expect in the short term. The collapse of talks at UAL and the 1113 action at AMR will leave the company thinking and serious raises for the pilots will put their pilot costs way to high and that they will have other costs with non union employee fallout. The package they put forth will be back loaded while the package we want and deserve will have to be front loaded. I see the gap between the two as far to big to be bridged before we go to the NBM. The NMB has made it clear we can expect a very long process if we go that route.
Again this is going to be a long difficult contract with a lot of choices that have to be made. Don't start spending raises now. They may not come for 5 years.
03-11-2012, 11:05 PM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
You have to attempt to view it from a management standpoint. They have spent five years in a reeducation campaign with the other employees that Delta will only be able to pay industry standard wages. They are correct in their cost assumptions to an extent. This is perhaps the most brutal industry around on companies that let costs get out of line.
A pilot contract that is viewed as above the abstract they have created with the other employees will lead to big problems. After our 2001 contract they had to follow up with a 17 percent raise to the mechanics when things started to get ugly there.
I suspect they will be willing to put forth a contract with some impressive numbers in the out years. They will not put out anything near what I or most pilots expect in the short term. The collapse of talks at UAL and the 1113 action at AMR will leave the company thinking and serious raises for the pilots will put their pilot costs way to high and that they will have other costs with non union employee fallout. The package they put forth will be back loaded while the package we want and deserve will have to be front loaded. I see the gap between the two as far to big to be bridged before we go to the NBM. The NMB has made it clear we can expect a very long process if we go that route.
Again this is going to be a long difficult contract with a lot of choices that have to be made. Don't start spending raises now. They may not come for 5 years.
A pilot contract that is viewed as above the abstract they have created with the other employees will lead to big problems. After our 2001 contract they had to follow up with a 17 percent raise to the mechanics when things started to get ugly there.
I suspect they will be willing to put forth a contract with some impressive numbers in the out years. They will not put out anything near what I or most pilots expect in the short term. The collapse of talks at UAL and the 1113 action at AMR will leave the company thinking and serious raises for the pilots will put their pilot costs way to high and that they will have other costs with non union employee fallout. The package they put forth will be back loaded while the package we want and deserve will have to be front loaded. I see the gap between the two as far to big to be bridged before we go to the NBM. The NMB has made it clear we can expect a very long process if we go that route.
Again this is going to be a long difficult contract with a lot of choices that have to be made. Don't start spending raises now. They may not come for 5 years.
Besides, my next door neighbor is a UAL 77 CA. He believes that they're kicking the can until we settle so that they have more leverage in their negotiations. Once again, we are the barometer for the industry. SWA piggybacked on us...if we can't piggyback on them, it won't be good for us or the industry. Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
03-11-2012, 11:15 PM
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Thanks Brother!
03-11-2012, 11:19 PM
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03-12-2012, 03:14 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
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We won't see a contract for five years. Management has no reason to get it done. This thingy called the RLA and the fact that the UCAL pilots can't get a contract done and the mess at LCC is our undoing. Management can buy anyone or anything and we can't do anything about it. Oh, and don't forget the rape of the AMR pilots that is about to begin. And no, I haven't been staring at an orange juice carton because it says "concentrate".
To me, five years is not their plan if they are hoping to "grow."
You have to attempt to view it from a management standpoint. They have spent five years in a reeducation campaign with the other employees that Delta will only be able to pay industry standard wages. They are correct in their cost assumptions to an extent. This is perhaps the most brutal industry around on companies that let costs get out of line.
A pilot contract that is viewed as above the abstract they have created with the other employees will lead to big problems. After our 2001 contract they had to follow up with a 17 percent raise to the mechanics when things started to get ugly there.
I suspect they will be willing to put forth a contract with some impressive numbers in the out years. They will not put out anything near what I or most pilots expect in the short term. The collapse of talks at UAL and the 1113 action at AMR will leave the company thinking and serious raises for the pilots will put their pilot costs way to high and that they will have other costs with non union employee fallout. The package they put forth will be back loaded while the package we want and deserve will have to be front loaded. I see the gap between the two as far to big to be bridged before we go to the NBM. The NMB has made it clear we can expect a very long process if we go that route.
Again this is going to be a long difficult contract with a lot of choices that have to be made. Don't start spending raises now. They may not come for 5 years.
A pilot contract that is viewed as above the abstract they have created with the other employees will lead to big problems. After our 2001 contract they had to follow up with a 17 percent raise to the mechanics when things started to get ugly there.
I suspect they will be willing to put forth a contract with some impressive numbers in the out years. They will not put out anything near what I or most pilots expect in the short term. The collapse of talks at UAL and the 1113 action at AMR will leave the company thinking and serious raises for the pilots will put their pilot costs way to high and that they will have other costs with non union employee fallout. The package they put forth will be back loaded while the package we want and deserve will have to be front loaded. I see the gap between the two as far to big to be bridged before we go to the NBM. The NMB has made it clear we can expect a very long process if we go that route.
Again this is going to be a long difficult contract with a lot of choices that have to be made. Don't start spending raises now. They may not come for 5 years.
I'm fine with that.
We should focus on getting this right. These Section 6s sure don't come all that often, why rush it out of fear? We low ball ourselves out of the time value of money fear and we just end up merging again with a crappy contract and not seeing another section 6 for a decade.
So the fear of "it could take five years!" should never sway our commitment to ourselves.
In the meanwhile...
03-12-2012, 03:19 AM
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If I may humbly ask, why are you guys shooting for swa's contract? I would shoot for FedEx's contract 261 hourly for 777 captain at the top and 115 second year Fo for the 757 plus good work rules. No regional either. Easier said then done but they fly boxes, you fly people.
03-12-2012, 03:33 AM
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If I may humbly ask, why are you guys shooting for swa's contract? I would shoot for FedEx's contract 261 hourly for 777 captain at the top and 115 second year Fo for the 757 plus good work rules. No regional either. Easier said then done but they fly boxes, you fly people.
Further, they rarely make nare a peep on the subject of scope (which could have a more profound affect compensation wise and quality of life wise for the bottom 6000 pilots at this airline than just about anything else short of a big infusion of pilotless widebodies). How do you like them apples?
Last edited by Jack Bauer; 03-12-2012 at 03:50 AM.
03-12-2012, 03:50 AM
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There will be a lot of angst among the pilots over the time line of the negotiations, but it is what it is. Buzz, you say UCAL is kicking the can down the road? They have failed miserably if that's the case. Let's not even discuss the disfunctional LCC group. We have no leverage as long as the others don't get improvements to their own contracts. This will be the fourth contract negotiation since I was hired, not including the bankruptcy concessions X 2, and the merger contract. In 1990 we got a fairly good contract after NWA got a good one, in 96 we took a 2% paycut and in 2000 we got UAL plus 1. we won't see anything for five years minimum.
03-12-2012, 04:38 AM
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Aw man, let me show you something that will totally blow that out of the water and prove once in for all that there is no money in cargo.
Exhibit A) Parked NWA 732s:
Exhibit B) Air France 744F.
Wait. There is money in cargo. Just not us doing cargo? Is that what they meant?
Then we ask whether comparing to another airline flying one of our smaller airplane types out of our largest base would be a good way to prop up our narrow body rates (ie we get parity with their 737 rates then winch up the rates an equal amount for airframes larger than this). Those who currently represent us tell us this is a bad strategy but be prepared for 5 years of stalemate with the NMB if we expect restoration (which they say likely wont be achieved).
Further, they rarely make nare a peep on the subject of scope (which could have a more profound affect compensation wise and quality of life wise for the bottom 6000 pilots at this airline than just about anything else short of a big infusion of pilotless widebodies). How do you like them apples?
Further, they rarely make nare a peep on the subject of scope (which could have a more profound affect compensation wise and quality of life wise for the bottom 6000 pilots at this airline than just about anything else short of a big infusion of pilotless widebodies). How do you like them apples?
03-12-2012, 04:38 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
You have to attempt to view it from a management standpoint. They have spent five years in a reeducation campaign with the other employees that Delta will only be able to pay industry standard wages. They are correct in their cost assumptions to an extent. This is perhaps the most brutal industry around on companies that let costs get out of line.
A pilot contract that is viewed as above the abstract they have created with the other employees will lead to big problems. After our 2001 contract they had to follow up with a 17 percent raise to the mechanics when things started to get ugly there.
I suspect they will be willing to put forth a contract with some impressive numbers in the out years. They will not put out anything near what I or most pilots expect in the short term. The collapse of talks at UAL and the 1113 action at AMR will leave the company thinking and serious raises for the pilots will put their pilot costs way to high and that they will have other costs with non union employee fallout. The package they put forth will be back loaded while the package we want and deserve will have to be front loaded. I see the gap between the two as far to big to be bridged before we go to the NBM. The NMB has made it clear we can expect a very long process if we go that route.
Again this is going to be a long difficult contract with a lot of choices that have to be made. Don't start spending raises now. They may not come for 5 years.
A pilot contract that is viewed as above the abstract they have created with the other employees will lead to big problems. After our 2001 contract they had to follow up with a 17 percent raise to the mechanics when things started to get ugly there.
I suspect they will be willing to put forth a contract with some impressive numbers in the out years. They will not put out anything near what I or most pilots expect in the short term. The collapse of talks at UAL and the 1113 action at AMR will leave the company thinking and serious raises for the pilots will put their pilot costs way to high and that they will have other costs with non union employee fallout. The package they put forth will be back loaded while the package we want and deserve will have to be front loaded. I see the gap between the two as far to big to be bridged before we go to the NBM. The NMB has made it clear we can expect a very long process if we go that route.
Again this is going to be a long difficult contract with a lot of choices that have to be made. Don't start spending raises now. They may not come for 5 years.
Carl
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