Carl Spackler

The reason it's so important is that it represents the high water mark for our next contract. Whatever we open with, the final product will be no better. If the opener is way better than many of us expected, our MEC could expect (as they have in the past) strong support throughout negotiations from the members to hang tough and get as close to that opener as possible. If the opener is way worse than many of us expect, it is highly likely ALPA will be replaced and they know that. This is the reason they are not releasing the opener. And no, a "concept" is not the opener.

Pay rates are only a small portion. In the past, we've gotten a detailed summary sheet (20 plus pages) on each section and the details therein. For me, pay rates are the last thing I'll be looking at. If what is released is more than a "concept", the first place I'll look is Section 1. I'll be looking for our opening position to be reversing all outsourcing. The company can continue to fly whatever equipment they choose to purchase/lease, but Delta seniority list pilots must fly them. Then I'll look at work rules and want to see 80 hour reserve guarantees and 7 hour per day minimum pay guarantee. Then I'll look at retirement and expect to see a 20% contribution to everyone's DC. Then I'll look at health care and expect to see employee contributions half to that of SWA.

That would indicate a strong opener and would give me great comfort that our MEC gets it, and our negotiators are going to be fighting the right battles. If it's just a concept, then we'll be in the dark until the TA comes out. This is my biggest worry because it's how MEC's in the past have crammed down horrible agreements by scaring the hell out of our families right at the end.

It shows the MEMBERS what our high water mark will be. Members have a right to know these things. We're already kept way too much in the dark as it is with all the non-disclosure agreements our union leaders sign. The Section 6 process has no such restrictions placed on our leaders. Any restrictions are self imposed.

They aren't meaningless. You don't care to know...that's fine. Many others of us DO care and we have every right to know and be kept abreast every step of the way. It is OUR negotiations being done by OUR union, funded with OUR dues.

Actually, you're the one laboring under a misconception. If we only hand out a "concept" and keep the members mushroomed until the TA comes out, that will be something that's never happened before. That's NOT how it is supposed to happen, and it's NOT how it's gone in the past.

This is where the misunderstanding is Check. That long process is what the past YEAR has been all about. Gathering survey data from us. The EF&A guys analyzing all aspects of the company's financials and comparing our competitor's contracts, etc. This year + long process has been all about producing an opening position that will stand up against management and the NMB ulitmately. This year + long process has NOT been about producing a "concept". It's been about producing a highly detailed opening position. That opener exists...we just won't be seeing it apparently. Unless you consider a "concept" to be transparency.

Yes it does. It's the first and foundational step. If you don't ask, you'll never get.

Carl

LeineLodge

I agree 100%. It's now time for the DPA to huddle everyone up and get behind the negotiators. The time for BBQ's and quasi-valid web surveys is long past. It's just divisive now and hurts us all.

Whether you agree with ALPA or not, we're now going to be dancing with the one that brought us. Telling your date that she's ugly and that you could do much better doesn't help your chances of succeeding (insert your definition of success here ) at the end of the night.

It's time for everyone to get on board. We all basically want the same thing.

Question for DPA guys: If DALPA were to negotiate C2012 to include massive restoration and scope reversals, would you be happy?

If the answer is yes, then you should be doing everything you can to support DALPA now, as they WILL be negotiating this contract.


**Full disclosure - I filled out a DPA card about 2 years ago and think the DPA movement served a very useful purpose. Unfortunately, they did not receive enough support and now our efforts will be most useful pushing the DALPA rock up the hill.

Carl Spackler

Other than that, no real validity. Other than THAT Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?

Exactly correct. And that's why it has huge validity and relevance to the members who FUND these negotiations.

My finances are in order, but a 5 year battle is wrong. You're assuming the NMB will treat us the same as AMR and LCC who had failed strategies.

Carl

Carl Spackler

Great post. Totally agree.

Carl

Carl Spackler

That doesn't mean we have to accept all of ALPA's conditions. They work for US! We don't have to accept being mushroomed.

While telling my date she's ugly won't help my chance of success, I have every right to ask her if she's on the pill. And I'll want a direct answer....not a "concept".

Yes.

I DO support them now and I have before. There's no other choice. I want a new union. But until I can have one, I strongly support the one I have. I spend quite a bit of time trying to give them a backbone. I can hear the angst in their voice when I call them, but I don't care. I support them, and they hear from me.

Carl

DAL 88 Driver

I don't really consider myself a DPA or DALPA guy (neither has earned my confidence), but I think this is an excellent question.

As anyone who has read my posts over the years knows, I am extremely critical of ALPA/DALPA. I think they have dropped the ball big time by acting like our bankruptcy era contract is some kind of new normal and by showing no sense of urgency in restoring our profession and our careers. I also don't appreciate the condescending, "we know better than you" attitude I consistently get from reps when I have expressed my concern over this.

Having said that, I really don't care who represents me. I only care about the results they get. To answer your question... Absolutely! If DALPA is able to negotiate massive, truly restorative increases in pay and a substantial reversal in outsourcing, I would be very happy. And you probably wouldn't hear much from me here or on the DALPA Forum going forward.

I'll even take it a step further. If I see that DALPA is truly striving for a restorative contract (i.e. their opener is along the lines of full pay restoration and reversal of outsourcing), I will be happy with them even if they don't get the full result... AS LONG AS I can see they are trying in earnest. The opener (conceptual or otherwise) needs to indicate this. If it doesn't, I will continue to be skeptical and critical. There is just too much of a track record that indicates something other than a restorative agenda for me to put blind faith that they have suddenly changed their stripes. I'm going to have to see proof of that. Time will tell. I'm not holding my breath... but I am keeping my eyes and mind open. The ball is in this MEC's court.

CVG767A

Given all the discussion about the Southwest contract (and the idea of adopting it in part or in its entirety) can anyone confirm my understanding of the lance captain program?

My understanding is that SWA has no captains on reserve, but instead has FOs that are captain qualified. These FOs will get escalated to the left seat as needed, and will be replaced in the right seat by a reserve. Do I have it right?

If that's the case, do we really want to go there?

cni187

Wife is traveling non rev from Shreveport to Atlanta experiencing firsthand the horrible customer service provided by an RJ airline slapped with the Delta brand on it. The flight has several seats available and the gate agent doesn't know how to clear the stbys. She said the gate agent got so fed up with people that she just walked off.

Update: Another gate agent came and told all the stby's that there were no more flights today. My wife went up to him and said " According to the Delta App there's a 4:30!" Gate agent replied, "Oh I thought it was 4:30 now."

flyallnite

Sorry to hear this all too familiar problem, hope she makes it out. May I suggest you take the time to write up the problem? At the top of the Travelnet web page, there is a link to Travel Survey. Have a scotch, count to 10, and fill out the NRSA Travel Survey form. That goes for alla youse.

Scoop

I don't really consider myself a "DPA guy," I have sent in a card and think some competition for DALPA was good and will always be good.

I don't really buy into the whole "The company loves the dis-unity" thing.

But to answer your question - I wouldn't care if DALPA contracted out to Elmer Fudd to represent us, if we get "massive restoration and Scope reversals" I would be happy.

** Elmer's agent said he is available except for a few days that coinicide with Wabbit Season.

Scoop