CVG767A

Damn! I was hoping to get back to Tbilisi this month. Thanks for the info, though!

BTW, your expectations for our next contract are pretty close to mine. I sure hope the MEC isn't setting their sights lower than that.

You make a good argument for an early abbreviated agreement outside of section 6 negotiations. It would be good to raise the bar as AA and UCAL are negotiating agreements.

I also think that management is all too aware of how much more smoothly the operation runs if we are on board. In the normal course of doing business, the pilots do a lot to grease the gears of Delta Air Lines. I bet Delta management can even put a rough dollar amount on this, based upon their experiences in 1996 and 2000.

I'm not saying we would start throwing sand in the gears-- that would be an illegal job action. Nor would it be any sort of concerted action, started on this or other web boards I'm just thinking that guys would be generally disgruntled, and would not go above and beyond to make the operation run well, if negotiations weren't going well.

Carl Spackler

I think he's referring to the honeybastian's comment about losing sleep over the fact that he didn't take enough away from the pilots in bankruptcy.

Carl

Wasatch Phantom

I think Sailing added the "sleepy" adjective because during the bankruptcy hearings on cutting pilot pay Ed Bastian testified something like "...he laid awake at night wondering if he asked for enough concessions from the pilots..."

His testimony is one reason why many pilots don't trust him...

FIIGMO

Just a bit of subject change from DPA v. ALPA.

I for one want the uniforms left alone. Delta decides, I work for Delta period. No childish act of defiance is going to change that and when I see guys wearing what they want, well it is just plain unprofessional. What other little temper tantrums are you playing with issues you disagree with? Not going to ride the van as scheduled because you get to the airport 1: 03 before show? I am sure the list can go on.... and on...

But why are we trying to relax the rules and lower standards? Why do we want to look like regional pilots?

Here is a novel idea. We expect all DCI carriers to conform to Delta image except pilots!!! F/A's look the same, A/C look the same. Facilities and interiors look the same. So why not make the flight crews look the same as mainline pilots? The DCI pilot walking through the terminal half dressed, white raybans on backwards around his neck, with his ipod stuck in his ears dragging around a back pack with his skate board hanging out is more detrimental to the professional image than looking cool. Paying passengers may want cheap tickets but they don't want cool when it comes to pilots. When the cool looking pilot walks by our customers who are watching him or her like a fish in a bowl, and boards a Delta painted jet, then we have all lost.....Delta Air lines pilots the most.

So why lower our standards??? Why not just enforce the standards we have to work under to the DCI carriers. We pay them, we own a majority of the air craft, we set the standards. Plain fact, if the DCI carrier wants the contract then these are the terms.

Before anyone says you cant impose these standards on another contract carrier, you are wrong. In my previous job, the regional I worked for just signed a contract with Midwest express out of MKE. Everybody was happy and the upgrades were going to come fast. When it was known that Midwest Express would require blazers and hats all year round, the pilots baulked! The pilots stated, "they cant make us do any of that, we dont work for them". No compliance? No contract, no flying, no upgrades.

Most professional looking group of pilots we ever had on property.


Important note here!! I really want all of the DCI carriers to have no Delta Airlines branding, colors etc on them at all. Paying passengers should know that those employees are not DAL and not what they paid for..... Since that horse has left the barn........

clancy

You think so? They only have 2300 active cards and to be counting the 2000 that are a year old is like counting chickens before the eggs hatch. They are done, but just don't know it. $55,000 in donations down the drain to LS.

Carl Spackler

I don't recall sailingfun making an argument to do a short term extension outside of Section, just that it may well happen. I recall him stating what he wanted for the life of the next contract in the hopes of getting one by the amendable date of our current one. Thus capitalizing on the time value of money now versus more money later after a longer negotiating time frame.

But here's an interesting question: If DALPA signs off on a two year extension with modest improvements with no meaningful scope recapture, and does so without MEMRAT, must we still not consider an in-house union given the fact that openers would be exchanged just 14 months later??

Carl

Carl Spackler

You don't know what you're talking about Clancy. Post your evidence and prove me wrong. And post it on the other thread please.

Carl

scambo1

I think Bar should answer that question.

tsquare

What are you basing your assertion that an extension may very well happen? Just curious.

I do agree with you that is an extension occurs without significant improvements, that there would be a riot. At this point though it is just useless conjecture and speculation based on nothing. I would think that any extension of this nature once section 6 begins, would require memrat, but I do not know the legalities. Maybe that stud Seehan can tell ya.

slowplay

Initial "Sunshine" rate was $114, SWA during the same time frame was $129. Delta reversed the labor arbitrage and Express took 54 mainline airplanes. In January 2000 the Express rate was $127 and the SWA rate was $133. Then C2K raised the Express rates well above SWA, and within 2 years it was shut down.

Don't know, don't really care on an individual basis. By asking that question you're advancing Bob Crandall's "B" scale argument. It's not an argument I want make. I do know there were 3 year Express Captains with a lower payrate making a lot more than I was making on mainline due to GSWC. I also know our 73NG Captains were making more than anybody else in the industry.

It appears to me you're trying to read into this more than there is. At its simplest form, pilot labor arbitrage trades direct compensation rates for growth. That growth comes from a competitive advantage (undercutting your competition). The original AMR "B-scalers" had a very fast track to Captain. SWA had a very fast track to Captain, and because much of their compensation was stock based, those on the ground floor did really well as their company grew. Delta Express had a very fast track to Captain. All of those used labor wage rates as a competitive advantage to undercut established contracts.

Look at the regional industry for more examples. CMR and ASA have payrates that are pretty much in line with each other, but most of their Captains have 16-18 years longevity. Compass's most senior pilots have 5 years. That difference in longevity has created a labor arbitrage that's helping to kill the "legacy" regionals.