Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
03-01-2012, 08:03 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I'm okay with whatever works, and if it's "constructive engagement", detached negotiation, or walking up and down the front of the terminal with with a placard. The toolbox needs to have more than one tool in it. If the only tool you have is a hammer, pretty soon every problem starts looking like a nail. I value the positive results of constructive engagement, and I realize confrontation is a last resort. But it needs to be a viable resort. Have you been to a strike committee meeting or organizational event lately? I haven't. I never remember any animosity between employee groups at NWA, we were all unionized and as such the spectacle of what frequently occurred in public during contract negotiations at Delta never occurred. We were always pulling for you, and to see the company and the non-union line employees creating farcical events to disrupt your negotiations was unnerving. I do remember getting my meals on a plate, but I haven't seen anything but "little friskies" canned mush and crackers lately.
Animosity might be too strong a word. But when I first started flying across the Atlantic with fNWA FAs, I NEVER... EVER... over the course of 6 months, got a call from the FAs asking how we are. And my meal was NEVER on a plate. One would think they would have a vested interest in knowing we were awake.. alive.. even on board, but I guess not..
03-01-2012, 08:06 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Exactly. Sailing might be the ALPA appointed board member that gets Stockholm Syndrom listening to possible future plans at the airline and then volunteers our pay to fund it. Paying pilots more is the cost of doing business. We gave up a lot in BK, and now it's time to restore a lot of it. Sailing likes to do management's job.....manage expectations.
03-01-2012, 08:10 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
03-01-2012, 08:12 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: A330B
Posts: 210
Your posts are usually better than this. Are you saying we don't know how to "man-up" when faced with similar circumstances?
When I look at how we fared just before, and just after BK, we did about the same. That is to say your end-result looked worse, but you kept your pension, as a consensus-building exercise I assume.
As you said yourself, above, except for C2K, your manning up yielded nothing exceptional. And C2K, of course, changed that. What teary-eyed non-manning-up group negotiated that? This group.
Let's not forget your strike. We were all proud of you, no doubt about it. Except you shouldn't factor out luck. It was explained to me by a North pilot you didn't strike so much as got locked-out, and the company was pre-packaged for sale (Pacific to AMR, I think it was). Planes were getting mothballed. The White House stepped in to let it be known the Pacific authorities were not going to get transferred, and threw some other big rock in management's puddle, and that was that.
This group, the entire Delta group, is just like most pilot groups. We will defend ourselves just as much, or just as hard, any group out there. Period. Want to man-up and build consensus? Start by not making broad, insulting assumptions about your brothers' motives. We're not motivated by fear: we're motivated by the desire to find what works best.
When I look at how we fared just before, and just after BK, we did about the same. That is to say your end-result looked worse, but you kept your pension, as a consensus-building exercise I assume.
As you said yourself, above, except for C2K, your manning up yielded nothing exceptional. And C2K, of course, changed that. What teary-eyed non-manning-up group negotiated that? This group.
Let's not forget your strike. We were all proud of you, no doubt about it. Except you shouldn't factor out luck. It was explained to me by a North pilot you didn't strike so much as got locked-out, and the company was pre-packaged for sale (Pacific to AMR, I think it was). Planes were getting mothballed. The White House stepped in to let it be known the Pacific authorities were not going to get transferred, and threw some other big rock in management's puddle, and that was that.
This group, the entire Delta group, is just like most pilot groups. We will defend ourselves just as much, or just as hard, any group out there. Period. Want to man-up and build consensus? Start by not making broad, insulting assumptions about your brothers' motives. We're not motivated by fear: we're motivated by the desire to find what works best.
03-01-2012, 08:14 AM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Position: MSP 7ERA
Posts: 58
Has anyone figured out how the addition of the AF Cargo service to ATL would have effected the AF/KLM JV production balance if they were included in the EASK?
03-01-2012, 08:18 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: 767A (Ret)
Posts: 6,248
That sounds reasonable, but unless a TA is reached fairly quickly, I suspect that somebody on one side or the other will grow frustrated and leak the opener(s).
03-01-2012, 08:34 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Definitions:
The following terms are as defined in the JV Agreement and are subject to the terms of the JV
Agreement as amended by the Companies.
Agreement as amended by the Companies.
•
Company(ies) means Delta Air Lines, Inc, Société Air France, and/or KLM N.V.
•
EASK means, with respect to one or both participants on one or more Joint Venture Routes,
Equivalent Available Seat Kilometers of such participant or participants on such Joint Venture
Route(s), which shall equal the sum of Equivalent Cabin Seats and Equivalent Cargo Seats
[offered on all the aircrafts of such Participant or Participants on such Joint Venture Route(s), as
applicable], multiplied by the nonstop distance in kilometers between the scheduled city-pair for
such Joint Venture Route(s), as follows:
EASK = (Equivalent Cabin Seats + Equivalent Cargo Seats) x Km
Equivalent Cabin Seats = Main Deck Surface / Seat Density
Equivalent Cargo Seats = Net Cargo Payload x Cargo Factor
Equivalent Available Seat Kilometers of such participant or participants on such Joint Venture
Route(s), which shall equal the sum of Equivalent Cabin Seats and Equivalent Cargo Seats
[offered on all the aircrafts of such Participant or Participants on such Joint Venture Route(s), as
applicable], multiplied by the nonstop distance in kilometers between the scheduled city-pair for
such Joint Venture Route(s), as follows:
EASK = (Equivalent Cabin Seats + Equivalent Cargo Seats) x Km
Equivalent Cabin Seats = Main Deck Surface / Seat Density
Equivalent Cargo Seats = Net Cargo Payload x Cargo Factor
Yes, they should be included by definition. No, have not figured how they skew the production balance. Georgetq might have a better idea.
Last edited by TheManager; 03-01-2012 at 08:49 AM.
03-01-2012, 08:41 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Really, how far is that? Is he in your boy scout troop?
Have you not been paying attention around here?
He's definitely a penguin.
03-01-2012, 08:45 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Can you point to something I wrote that you disagree with on a factual basis?
I'm just trying to make the point that we need to police our own profession. The company or the ATA sure aren't going to. Examining management's arguments might provide instruction as to weaknesses in our own.
In my opinion, it has been far too easy to become an airline pilot in the last ten years. That fact does not improve our leverage at the negotiating table. As such, it's something we need to examine and improve. Getting those flight time requirements passed and enforced should be a top priority at ALPA national, in my opinion.
Relatedly, what is the current turbine PIC requirement to be considered qualified at SWA? It think it fluctuates between 1300-1500. That requirement makes sense. If you're hiring people as Captains, how have they demonstrated that ability if they have not served in said capacity?
You're off by a few.
Exactly. Getting into that 5500 has become way too easy, and a huge percentage of that 5500 is out there right now flying half of Delta's daily flights.
I was referring to T's comments about pilots who showed up after C2k talking about what they had lost. I wasn't here during 2000 or the bankruptcy either. While I think it's criminal what was done to the pilot group, I cannot state that I was directly effected by that loss.
If I got on at a major airline in my mid twenties never having commanded a high performance aircraft, or with the ability to count on one hand how many times I'd flown a jet aircraft from takeoff to land without an autopilot (and under the supervision of someone else at that), I wouldn't be loudly proclaiming that I deserve the same career prestige and compensation as our Captain ranks, many of whom are more likely to have pounded around thunderstorms hauling night freight, or been over Baghdad in 1991.
Further, I wouldn't be making that argument if I spent my first several years in the industry doing the same job for less and undercutting the pilots who made this career a profession.
In my opinion, ALPA representation of of many of these pilots serves to water down a the professional standard. The fact that so many pilots who have not been subjected to a meaningful standard of selection upon entering the profession are represented by ALPA also handcuffs our union with respect to arguments that they can make that would support (mainline) Delta pilots.
Delta is not attracting the cream of the crop right now. The guys in the active component where I drill that are even interested in the airlines have Delta as a plan C or D. You said Delta pay was a transition. With your resume, you are literally making half of what you could elsewhere.
Two of your classmates have left for Southwest, and I bet a bottle of Macallan 18 against that Air Force neckerchief of yours that at least one, maybe two will be hauling boxes very soon. My goal is for this contract to reverse that trend.
I'm just trying to make the point that we need to police our own profession. The company or the ATA sure aren't going to. Examining management's arguments might provide instruction as to weaknesses in our own.
In my opinion, it has been far too easy to become an airline pilot in the last ten years. That fact does not improve our leverage at the negotiating table. As such, it's something we need to examine and improve. Getting those flight time requirements passed and enforced should be a top priority at ALPA national, in my opinion.
Relatedly, what is the current turbine PIC requirement to be considered qualified at SWA? It think it fluctuates between 1300-1500. That requirement makes sense. If you're hiring people as Captains, how have they demonstrated that ability if they have not served in said capacity?
You're off by a few.
Exactly. Getting into that 5500 has become way too easy, and a huge percentage of that 5500 is out there right now flying half of Delta's daily flights.
I was referring to T's comments about pilots who showed up after C2k talking about what they had lost. I wasn't here during 2000 or the bankruptcy either. While I think it's criminal what was done to the pilot group, I cannot state that I was directly effected by that loss.
If I got on at a major airline in my mid twenties never having commanded a high performance aircraft, or with the ability to count on one hand how many times I'd flown a jet aircraft from takeoff to land without an autopilot (and under the supervision of someone else at that), I wouldn't be loudly proclaiming that I deserve the same career prestige and compensation as our Captain ranks, many of whom are more likely to have pounded around thunderstorms hauling night freight, or been over Baghdad in 1991.
Further, I wouldn't be making that argument if I spent my first several years in the industry doing the same job for less and undercutting the pilots who made this career a profession.
In my opinion, ALPA representation of of many of these pilots serves to water down a the professional standard. The fact that so many pilots who have not been subjected to a meaningful standard of selection upon entering the profession are represented by ALPA also handcuffs our union with respect to arguments that they can make that would support (mainline) Delta pilots.
Delta is not attracting the cream of the crop right now. The guys in the active component where I drill that are even interested in the airlines have Delta as a plan C or D. You said Delta pay was a transition. With your resume, you are literally making half of what you could elsewhere.
Two of your classmates have left for Southwest, and I bet a bottle of Macallan 18 against that Air Force neckerchief of yours that at least one, maybe two will be hauling boxes very soon. My goal is for this contract to reverse that trend.
I suspect you like many of us got in to this career for a few reasons. One was that you loved flying, but the other one was that you could make decent money doing what you loved. I further suspect you opted for aviation because of the pay and benefits versus another career. I know I did.
03-01-2012, 08:48 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
T and Sailing are in the same boy scout troop.
I'm in a different boy scout troop.
I'm hoping we can all get together for the Jamboree.
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