Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-29-2012, 10:27 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
We need a song for this new AE.
I propose, a takeoff of "I Sang Dixie" sung by B-U-double-Z. Hit it! Dwight Yoakam - I sang Dixie - YouTube
I sang Dixie, as L.A. died
But people just walked on by, as I cried
The AEs had robbed us, of all our narrowbody pride
So I sang Dixie, as L.A. died
I said way down yonder in the land of cotton (ATL), old times there ain't near as rotten
As they are in this damned old L.A.X.
Narrowbodies drew a dying breath, and I laid the AE against my chest
Please Lord, take this soul back to Dixie
And I sang Dixie, as mainline died
But people just walked on by, as I cried
The JV had robbed us, of all our widebody pride
So I sang Dixie, as mainline died
I say listen to me son while you still can, run to the left seat in Thailand,
Don't you see, what life here has done to me
They closed all those big seats, and I fell to the elongated nine,
No more pain, and now I'm temporarily safe back home in Dixie
And I sang Dixie, as mainline died
But people just walked on by, as I cried
Our weak scope had robbed us, of all our pride
So I sang Dixie as mainline died.
I propose, a takeoff of "I Sang Dixie" sung by B-U-double-Z. Hit it! Dwight Yoakam - I sang Dixie - YouTube
I sang Dixie, as L.A. died
But people just walked on by, as I cried
The AEs had robbed us, of all our narrowbody pride
So I sang Dixie, as L.A. died
I said way down yonder in the land of cotton (ATL), old times there ain't near as rotten
As they are in this damned old L.A.X.
Narrowbodies drew a dying breath, and I laid the AE against my chest
Please Lord, take this soul back to Dixie
And I sang Dixie, as mainline died
But people just walked on by, as I cried
The JV had robbed us, of all our widebody pride
So I sang Dixie, as mainline died
I say listen to me son while you still can, run to the left seat in Thailand,
Don't you see, what life here has done to me
They closed all those big seats, and I fell to the elongated nine,
No more pain, and now I'm temporarily safe back home in Dixie
And I sang Dixie, as mainline died
But people just walked on by, as I cried
Our weak scope had robbed us, of all our pride
So I sang Dixie as mainline died.
02-29-2012, 10:30 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: A330B
Posts: 210
I actually saw this question posed at a NWA union meeting about nine years ago. Hapless Aggie was dressed down and humiliated in front of the whole group. It was not pretty, and the guy is no longer on the property. We need to stay out of it emotionally and let the hired guns do the talking. In 98' NWA had a industry leading contract, and we also got locked out for two weeks. We had fantastic preparation by a very dedicated union. I don't see any of that now.
02-29-2012, 10:30 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
02-29-2012, 10:40 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
RA feels we are paid about right at the moment. He is on record stating that. He has over and over again stressed that Delta will only pay industry average wages not industry leading. If he gives us a industry leading contract he is going to have to follow up by doing the same for all employees or face having Delta once again become a very poor performing airline. The cost would be very high.
1st. So, RA feels we are paid about right and DAL will only pay industry average wages?
What are those AF/KLM payrates? How much better are their benefits?
I'm not even going to beat the SWA/AT horse again. Everyone here gets it. Christ, just look at their medical benefits which I do believe they all get on day one of the integration.
2nd. As for the other employees. Most, if not all groups, are close to or have passed their Bk pay levels. They also did not take as severe of a haircut that we did. We do not have to consider them, nor how RA feels he has to respond to them, in context to our own contract. That argument is a non starter. And by the way, he will likely have to take that up with their union(s) anyway. Next merger is going to most likely end that drama once and for all at DAL
02-29-2012, 11:00 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,599
1st. So, RA feels we are paid about right and DAL will only pay industry average wages?
What are those AF/KLM payrates? How much better are their benefits?
I'm not even going to beat the SWA/AT horse again. Everyone here gets it. Christ, just look at their medical benefits which I do believe they all get on day one of the integration.
2nd. As for the other employees. Most, if not all groups, are close to or have passed their Bk pay levels. They also did not take as severe of a haircut that we did. We do not have to consider them, nor how RA feels he has to respond to them, in context to our own contract. That argument is a non starter. And by the way, he will likely have to take that up with their union(s) anyway. Next merger is going to most likely end that drama once and for all at DAL
What are those AF/KLM payrates? How much better are their benefits?
I'm not even going to beat the SWA/AT horse again. Everyone here gets it. Christ, just look at their medical benefits which I do believe they all get on day one of the integration.
2nd. As for the other employees. Most, if not all groups, are close to or have passed their Bk pay levels. They also did not take as severe of a haircut that we did. We do not have to consider them, nor how RA feels he has to respond to them, in context to our own contract. That argument is a non starter. And by the way, he will likely have to take that up with their union(s) anyway. Next merger is going to most likely end that drama once and for all at DAL
Your points are valid to an extent. Perception however is everything. Management will have to cough up some major money to the other employees after we sign if its a great contract. You can point to airlines with better contracts then Delta. Management is going to point to other examples. USAIR is actually are biggest competitor on a overall passenger basis. We compete on virtually ever Eastern Market. What are their payrates?
As far as what other employees took in pay cuts again you have to look at the overall cuts. Their retirement used to be identical to ours. Its been frozen since 04. Their new retirement is substantially less then ours. I believe its 5.5 percent into a DC plan. Ours is 14 percent. They did not see the major increases we saw from 2000 to 2004. Their medical went up just like ours however if your take home pay is 2000 a month and your medical goes up 300 a month its a much bigger hit then someone taking home 6000 a month or more. I don't know of any employee groups that are getting more pay now then pre chapter 11. The current flight attendant rate is 46 an hour verses 50 before the filing. If you compare most other employee groups to the industry and then compare us we are at a higher rate relative to average. You may somehow feel slighted but the other employees have given plenty. I am not even considering the whole sale job reductions and complete job eliminations many groups endured.
02-29-2012, 11:04 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
We need a song for this new AE.
I propose, a takeoff of "I Sang Dixie" sung by B-U-double-Z. Hit it! Dwight Yoakam - I sang Dixie - YouTube
I sang Dixie, as L.A. died
But people just walked on by, as I cried
The AEs had robbed us, of all our narrowbody pride
So I sang Dixie, as L.A. died
I said way down yonder in the land of cotton (ATL), old times there ain't near as rotten
As they are in this damned old L.A.X.
Narrowbodies drew a dying breath, and I laid the AE against my chest
Please Lord, take this soul back to Dixie
And I sang Dixie, as mainline died
But people just walked on by, as I cried
The JV had robbed us, of all our widebody pride
So I sang Dixie, as mainline died
I say listen to me son while you still can, run to a left seat in Thailand,
Don't you see, what life here has done to me
They closed all those big seats, and I fell to the elongated nine,
No more pain, and now I'm temporarily safe back home in Dixie
And I sang Dixie, as mainline died
But people just walked on by, as I cried
Our weak scope had robbed us, of all our pride
So I sang Dixie as mainline died.
.
I propose, a takeoff of "I Sang Dixie" sung by B-U-double-Z. Hit it! Dwight Yoakam - I sang Dixie - YouTube
I sang Dixie, as L.A. died
But people just walked on by, as I cried
The AEs had robbed us, of all our narrowbody pride
So I sang Dixie, as L.A. died
I said way down yonder in the land of cotton (ATL), old times there ain't near as rotten
As they are in this damned old L.A.X.
Narrowbodies drew a dying breath, and I laid the AE against my chest
Please Lord, take this soul back to Dixie
And I sang Dixie, as mainline died
But people just walked on by, as I cried
The JV had robbed us, of all our widebody pride
So I sang Dixie, as mainline died
I say listen to me son while you still can, run to a left seat in Thailand,
Don't you see, what life here has done to me
They closed all those big seats, and I fell to the elongated nine,
No more pain, and now I'm temporarily safe back home in Dixie
And I sang Dixie, as mainline died
But people just walked on by, as I cried
Our weak scope had robbed us, of all our pride
So I sang Dixie as mainline died.
.
02-29-2012, 11:06 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: New to mother D
Posts: 123
S
From a lurker and occasional poster-
Great discussion about pay and contract expectations.
One thing that I think we're losing sight of is that there are literally thousands of pilots that want jobs at Delta that are willing to work harder than we are for much less money.
The company's position is a direct result of that fact. It's simple economics. Deserve has got nothing to do with it.
One other thing. Delta has been hiring a good number of folks with zero PIC. Safety arguments aside, that strategy is going to have an impact on the pilot group. Those pilots have less opportunity to gain employment elsewhere and I believe their votes may reflect that.
Tsquare's statements about youth entitlement in this case are dead on, IMHO. The pilots in the top half of the seniority list are a product of a much more selective process than us youngsters.
It's much harder to get an electrician's apprenticeship than to gain admission to a puppy mill. If those flight hour requirements don't get implemented and enforced, what used to be a profession will have been irreversibly changed to more of a trade.
Great discussion about pay and contract expectations.
One thing that I think we're losing sight of is that there are literally thousands of pilots that want jobs at Delta that are willing to work harder than we are for much less money.
The company's position is a direct result of that fact. It's simple economics. Deserve has got nothing to do with it.
One other thing. Delta has been hiring a good number of folks with zero PIC. Safety arguments aside, that strategy is going to have an impact on the pilot group. Those pilots have less opportunity to gain employment elsewhere and I believe their votes may reflect that.
Tsquare's statements about youth entitlement in this case are dead on, IMHO. The pilots in the top half of the seniority list are a product of a much more selective process than us youngsters.
It's much harder to get an electrician's apprenticeship than to gain admission to a puppy mill. If those flight hour requirements don't get implemented and enforced, what used to be a profession will have been irreversibly changed to more of a trade.
Last edited by Whidbey; 02-29-2012 at 11:08 AM. Reason: Spelling
02-29-2012, 11:07 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,599
Do not let that extinguish your hopes! Erase the problems of other carriers form the equation. They are not our problem. We made $1 bil. each year the last two years and in this economy. They can afford our restoration and they will still have profit left over. We are negotiating for an agreement with Delta Air Lines not the rest of the airline industry.
02-29-2012, 11:08 AM
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
P-S-P
People Service Profits.
The displacements do not necessarily bother me. That is part of the business. What does get me is the reasons that we are overstaffed on our WB jets. Yes, Europe is down, but one must as if the cities we have opted not to serve are either down, or is it more profitable for the AF/KL/AZ/DAL JV to serve them though AMR or CDG? IMO the devil is in the details.
-Asia is doing very well. Opportunities exist, yet we see limited growth
-We are in a "new" three year measurement period with the North Atlantic JV therefore there is no corrective mechanism until after the measurement period is over. (Starting years two on April 1)
- Our block hrs will be up significantly in 2014 about the same time that the seat mods are done in our WB jets and the enforcement period comes in to play on the JV.
Coincidence? I will let you decide.
As an aside, I will agree that the JV production balance is a good deal for the pilots, but there are a few things that should have been added prior to implementation. As a result we need to play catchup in a few key areas. Of course many will argue that hindsight is always 20/20.
People Service Profits.
The displacements do not necessarily bother me. That is part of the business. What does get me is the reasons that we are overstaffed on our WB jets. Yes, Europe is down, but one must as if the cities we have opted not to serve are either down, or is it more profitable for the AF/KL/AZ/DAL JV to serve them though AMR or CDG? IMO the devil is in the details.
-Asia is doing very well. Opportunities exist, yet we see limited growth
-We are in a "new" three year measurement period with the North Atlantic JV therefore there is no corrective mechanism until after the measurement period is over. (Starting years two on April 1)
- Our block hrs will be up significantly in 2014 about the same time that the seat mods are done in our WB jets and the enforcement period comes in to play on the JV.
Coincidence? I will let you decide.
As an aside, I will agree that the JV production balance is a good deal for the pilots, but there are a few things that should have been added prior to implementation. As a result we need to play catchup in a few key areas. Of course many will argue that hindsight is always 20/20.
What gets me is the company simultaneously planning displacements while not offering the early outs to pilots. Are we overstaffed or aren't we? Take your pick but don't offer me two competing narratives that aren't reconcilable.
Re: Transatlantic JV
Production balance is a good thing for a JV, no doubt. I'm glad RD was thinking about ways to capture downside protection in LOA16 for the AFKLM JV, something the AF JV previously didn't have. The general concept of MOU14 was sound, capturing a greater share of the AFKLM/AZ flying even if we added the new 3 year compliance window from April 2011 to March 2014. It's there so we'll learn to live with it. While we can't make AFKLM/AZ change their tune and the enforcement window is open, we sure can call out management on the fact that the spirit and trend of the AFKLM/AZ is totally being abused. There is a price for being taken advantage of, even if it is legal...
Cheers
George
Here's my graphic to illustrate the point. It's based of Delta's own slide #8 from Delta's Bank of America briefing 9 months ago. AFKLM/AZ numbers are extrapolated from the given JV Total and Delta share using a 50% production balance as the basis, with a lower production balance share the AFKLM disparity is amplified.
For context: RD quoted 6 to 7 Delta transatlantic roundtrip flights to gain 3% of the production balance.
02-29-2012, 11:26 AM
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Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Your points are valid to an extent. Perception however is everything. Management will have to cough up some major money to the other employees after we sign if its a great contract. You can point to airlines with better contracts then Delta. Management is going to point to other examples. USAIR is actually are biggest competitor on a overall passenger basis. We compete on virtually ever Eastern Market. What are their payrates?
Additionally, if Judge Silver does not grant D. Parker his request, things will begin moving quickly at USAirways. Will RA still be holding them as an example if they secure a largely improved contract? Who will he turn to next to try and keep his data points as low as posssible?
Our job is to negotiate our contract and make our case for what we are worth. We as pilots can except what his says, or, we can hold up our peers in the Atlantic JV, and the other peer that is now proudly operating in Atlanta and doing it's best to let the Nation know it. We can work with management to provide a safe and great airline every day. That is pretty much where our interests diverge though. Their allegiance is to the bond and share holders as well as themselves. Ours is to provide for our families. We need to never forget that while we are negotiating. And, we are always negotiating.
Lastly, with SWA's purchase of AirTran, how does that effect your statement that USAirways is our biggest competitor on an overall passenger basis?
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