Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-29-2012, 07:33 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 631
I have been here a long time. I have never seen a contract completed less then 18 months past the amendable date and those were simple compared to this contract. The NMB gave a brief to the MEC in Jan. They put the powerpoint presentation on the website with some timeline information. Every pilot should review what the NMB put out. The history of pilot contracts over the last 15 years is easily available. Nothing has happened fast. Several contracts have exceeded 5 years.
RA feels we are paid about right at the moment. He is on record stating that. He has over and over again stressed that Delta will only pay industry average wages not industry leading. If he gives us a industry leading contract he is going to have to follow up by doing the same for all employees or face having Delta once again become a very poor performing airline. The cost would be very high.
His last talk at the LCA meeting he stressed improvements over time and discussed the AMR situation and what the union passed up at length. The implied message was obvious to every in attendance. If we want a 4, 4, 4, 4 contract with no change in other areas we can have it done close to the amendable date. I will not accept that type of contract and I doubt the majority of the pilot group will accept it.
This forum makes light of pilot costs as a issue in the success of the airline. I can assure you that management has a vastly different view. This is a brutal industry selling a commodity. When you sell a commodity you had better be priced within pennies of the competition or your not going to last. The gains this pilot group wants and deserves are not going to come easy or quick. Its going to be a long hard struggle over many years. To believe anything else is a fantasy.
A year ago I would have given us a much better chance of a quick contract. I thought AMR would get a deal done as well as UAL/CAL. It now appears they are both going no where fast or in the case of AMR no where good. A lot has changed. Prepare yourself for a long fight. Get set financially. If Delta does not meet your needs and you have better options now I would jump all over that. I will hopefully only be around another 3 years. I am about done with my career and I don't want another flying job. I don't understand why the younger pilots on this forum are sticking around if they even believe half of what they post and hate the job and Delta as much as they say.
RA feels we are paid about right at the moment. He is on record stating that. He has over and over again stressed that Delta will only pay industry average wages not industry leading. If he gives us a industry leading contract he is going to have to follow up by doing the same for all employees or face having Delta once again become a very poor performing airline. The cost would be very high.
His last talk at the LCA meeting he stressed improvements over time and discussed the AMR situation and what the union passed up at length. The implied message was obvious to every in attendance. If we want a 4, 4, 4, 4 contract with no change in other areas we can have it done close to the amendable date. I will not accept that type of contract and I doubt the majority of the pilot group will accept it.
This forum makes light of pilot costs as a issue in the success of the airline. I can assure you that management has a vastly different view. This is a brutal industry selling a commodity. When you sell a commodity you had better be priced within pennies of the competition or your not going to last. The gains this pilot group wants and deserves are not going to come easy or quick. Its going to be a long hard struggle over many years. To believe anything else is a fantasy.
A year ago I would have given us a much better chance of a quick contract. I thought AMR would get a deal done as well as UAL/CAL. It now appears they are both going no where fast or in the case of AMR no where good. A lot has changed. Prepare yourself for a long fight. Get set financially. If Delta does not meet your needs and you have better options now I would jump all over that. I will hopefully only be around another 3 years. I am about done with my career and I don't want another flying job. I don't understand why the younger pilots on this forum are sticking around if they even believe half of what they post and hate the job and Delta as much as they say.
Last edited by LandGreen2; 02-29-2012 at 07:49 AM.
02-29-2012, 07:38 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
02-29-2012, 07:46 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
I have been here a long time. I have never seen a contract completed less then 18 months past the amendable date and those were simple compared to this contract. The NMB gave a brief to the MEC in Jan. They put the powerpoint presentation on the website with some timeline information. Every pilot should review what the NMB put out. The history of pilot contracts over the last 15 years is easily available. Nothing has happened fast. Several contracts have exceeded 5 years.
RA feels we are paid about right at the moment. He is on record stating that. He has over and over again stressed that Delta will only pay industry average wages not industry leading. If he gives us a industry leading contract he is going to have to follow up by doing the same for all employees or face having Delta once again become a very poor performing airline. The cost would be very high.
His last talk at the LCA meeting he stressed improvements over time and discussed the AMR situation and what the union passed up at length. The implied message was obvious to every in attendance. If we want a 4, 4, 4, 4 contract with no change in other areas we can have it done close to the amendable date. I will not accept that type of contract and I doubt the majority of the pilot group will accept it.
This forum makes light of pilot costs as a issue in the success of the airline. I can assure you that management has a vastly different view. This is a brutal industry selling a commodity. When you sell a commodity you had better be priced within pennies of the competition or your not going to last. The gains this pilot group wants and deserves are not going to come easy or quick. Its going to be a long hard struggle over many years. To believe anything else is a fantasy.
A year ago I would have given us a much better chance of a quick contract. I thought AMR would get a deal done as well as UAL/CAL. It now appears they are both going no where fast or in the case of AMR no where good. A lot has changed. Prepare yourself for a long fight. Get set financially. If Delta does not meet your needs and you have better options now I would jump all over that. I will hopefully only be around another 3 years. I am about done with my career and I don't want another flying job. I don't understand why the younger pilots on this forum are sticking around if they even believe half of what they post and hate the job and Delta as much as they say.
RA feels we are paid about right at the moment. He is on record stating that. He has over and over again stressed that Delta will only pay industry average wages not industry leading. If he gives us a industry leading contract he is going to have to follow up by doing the same for all employees or face having Delta once again become a very poor performing airline. The cost would be very high.
His last talk at the LCA meeting he stressed improvements over time and discussed the AMR situation and what the union passed up at length. The implied message was obvious to every in attendance. If we want a 4, 4, 4, 4 contract with no change in other areas we can have it done close to the amendable date. I will not accept that type of contract and I doubt the majority of the pilot group will accept it.
This forum makes light of pilot costs as a issue in the success of the airline. I can assure you that management has a vastly different view. This is a brutal industry selling a commodity. When you sell a commodity you had better be priced within pennies of the competition or your not going to last. The gains this pilot group wants and deserves are not going to come easy or quick. Its going to be a long hard struggle over many years. To believe anything else is a fantasy.
A year ago I would have given us a much better chance of a quick contract. I thought AMR would get a deal done as well as UAL/CAL. It now appears they are both going no where fast or in the case of AMR no where good. A lot has changed. Prepare yourself for a long fight. Get set financially. If Delta does not meet your needs and you have better options now I would jump all over that. I will hopefully only be around another 3 years. I am about done with my career and I don't want another flying job. I don't understand why the younger pilots on this forum are sticking around if they even believe half of what they post and hate the job and Delta as much as they say.
Last edited by iceman49; 02-29-2012 at 05:30 PM.
02-29-2012, 08:00 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
You guys are just all so negative!
Let's celebrate the new jet delivered today!
Is this "Winning New York?" ;-)
Brand new A330-300 delivered today, it's practically ours...
Cheers
George
Let's celebrate the new jet delivered today!
Is this "Winning New York?" ;-)
Brand new A330-300 delivered today, it's practically ours...
Cheers
George
02-29-2012, 08:03 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
02-29-2012, 08:06 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: CRJ Captain
Posts: 1,406
Just incase you guys didn't know spirit just announced las-msp and Ord-msp. They had been going after aa and united now it looks like they are going to target delta. Can you match their 9 dollar intro fares?
02-29-2012, 08:09 AM
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: A-320 right
Posts: 15
Hi everyone,
First post so please be kind.
Those numbers comparing revenue generated per pilot are interesting but if true are not surprising. We generated record profit over $1 bil. each year for the last two years. That seems a little rich to me. Does that seem a little too rich to anyone else?
Our pay is severely lagging behind other employee groups at Delta. Flight attendants and gate agents are very near to their pre-bankruptcy pay(percentage-wise). Ask them. Other employee groups may be as well. I don't know. Why are we being left behind?
That is our money being used to pay down debt. It's like for the last two years each of us sat down to write a personal check to Delta in the amount of about $80,000($1bil./12,000 pilots). That's how I look at it. It makes me angry to see Delta have such high profits because we subsidized it.
I don't care about AMR corp's bankruptcy. I don't care about how much oil is. These are not my problems. They are not in my control. These are managements problems. AMR will come back again. Oil will go up and down. Don't let them fool us into thinking it is our burden to absorb these events into our paychecks and benefits. I only hope the union thinks the same way.
Of course it's managements job to low-ball us in a negotiation. That's what they are supposed to do. They will never offer us what we want. It is unsettling to see some of my colleagues on here and on line resign themselves to a 4% increase over four years if it were offered. This is unspeakable and outrageous! I'm junior and am willing to fight to the end for what we all deserve and what is right.
First post so please be kind.
Those numbers comparing revenue generated per pilot are interesting but if true are not surprising. We generated record profit over $1 bil. each year for the last two years. That seems a little rich to me. Does that seem a little too rich to anyone else?
Our pay is severely lagging behind other employee groups at Delta. Flight attendants and gate agents are very near to their pre-bankruptcy pay(percentage-wise). Ask them. Other employee groups may be as well. I don't know. Why are we being left behind?
That is our money being used to pay down debt. It's like for the last two years each of us sat down to write a personal check to Delta in the amount of about $80,000($1bil./12,000 pilots). That's how I look at it. It makes me angry to see Delta have such high profits because we subsidized it.
I don't care about AMR corp's bankruptcy. I don't care about how much oil is. These are not my problems. They are not in my control. These are managements problems. AMR will come back again. Oil will go up and down. Don't let them fool us into thinking it is our burden to absorb these events into our paychecks and benefits. I only hope the union thinks the same way.
Of course it's managements job to low-ball us in a negotiation. That's what they are supposed to do. They will never offer us what we want. It is unsettling to see some of my colleagues on here and on line resign themselves to a 4% increase over four years if it were offered. This is unspeakable and outrageous! I'm junior and am willing to fight to the end for what we all deserve and what is right.
02-29-2012, 08:10 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Exactly.
They want want us under an agreement to further their reach and profitability, they will need to decide if they are willing to pay the price for their goals.
If we get to vote on (and it passes) anything remotely to what Sailing suggests, it makes many pilots' decisions easy on where to go wrt to their career.
Many have said the senior guys have run the number and know exactly what this or that will result in the results not effecting them, but another reality is true. The junior pilots are running their numbers as well. If DAL does not want to pay to keep talent and quality in the flight decks,there is a surprising number of pilots looking overseas. I suspect we will see some jump to FDX and UPS, but many will just go work overseas for a period of 10-15 years and then return to the states to finish their careers out on a commuting contract or start a business. It does make a lot of sense.
As T say, it is not ideal, but for many pilots looking at less than 25 years in the game, and at least 10 years to the half way mark in this seniority list. You have to look at the risk-reward of some other opportunity to meet life/retirement goals if your current employer is not willing to rationally share in the gains. Its business and nothing personal from what my of the pilots I have talked to who are looking. They want DAL to get it right, but their families come first.
The interesting note in all of this is that pilots are finding portability of their skill set, and to a larger degree than they have before. US airlines need to take note of this, and realize that the rest of the world is seeing the pilot shortage we are waiting for here. There will not be expats to fill the seats here. Pay must go up to get those interest in this career to jump in. It is pure economics.
We need to replace over half of this list in the next 15 years. If DAL wants to maintain their size and quality of their pilot force, the total package needs to come up. What I am seeing across the board is, no one is willing to compromise their contractual goals to get a deal done quickly. If our employer is unwilling to pay us what the rest of the World is paying pilots, many have started to formulate and exit strategy. The days of the lion's share of pilots using this job to pay the bills until the military pension shows up are disappearing. DAL and the rest of the US industry needs to realize that and adjust accordingly.
02-29-2012, 08:13 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
02-29-2012, 08:14 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
Yeah, right.
Never forget, He is Managenet, YOU are the hired help. And when he's talking to the help, he's already negotiating.
He knows his audience, and he knows what to say to them (us). He is already in contract negotiaions, obviously.
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