Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-25-2012, 04:42 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
What I don't agree with is you making veiled references to skullduggery with no specifics nor any way to tell if you are just making things up. It is tabloid smear tactics. ... You called people liars and you made a bunch of statements about the union that are patently false. You try to make some separation between your statements and the people they libel but you are just trying to wriggle out of taking responsibility for your attacks. ...Don't make stuff up and I won't show how you are making stuff up.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-25-2012 at 05:19 AM.
02-25-2012, 05:13 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Still in one
Posts: 784
Early out program w. medical. Pilots not included.
02-25-2012, 05:15 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
02-25-2012, 05:20 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Gloppy
I fully expect management to ask for at least 255 more rj's to a 88 seat limit. (C-Seiries in a dual class config fwiw. That's what AMR is asking for and brcause of the C-Series jet). If they opt not to it is because they know what that openi g position will do to the majority of pilots. With AMR asking it makes it increasingly likely that UAL and DAL will put for the same proposal. We all have to stand strong on that issue.
I fully expect management to ask for at least 255 more rj's to a 88 seat limit. (C-Seiries in a dual class config fwiw. That's what AMR is asking for and brcause of the C-Series jet). If they opt not to it is because they know what that openi g position will do to the majority of pilots. With AMR asking it makes it increasingly likely that UAL and DAL will put for the same proposal. We all have to stand strong on that issue.
02-25-2012, 05:22 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
02-25-2012, 05:24 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
02-25-2012, 05:39 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Interesting Friday Night at the fights.
A couple opinions from an observer:
1) alfaromeo is denying that the sky is blue when he tries to minimize the role that ALPA and our contractual scope language plays in Delta's fleet decisions and their other joint venture and code-share arrangements. DALPA and management have been "constructively engaged" in outsourcing for a long time now. Moak truly believe(s)(d) that RJs saved Delta. Same goes for international alliances and revenue sharing in its various forms.
ALPA has clearly been a co-conspirator in outsourcing.
I hope they've realized the error and will reverse that policy going forward.
2) Bucking Bar often speaks as if ALPA can unilaterally mix and match pilot groups and seniority lists with relative ease and management and the government will just go along with whatever the union wants to do in that regard. He makes it sound like we could all be on one list and "unity" could be instantly achieved if only the people in charge of ALPA would stop standing in the way.
The fact is that the NMB and only the NMB decides who is in which bargaining units and if management does not merge the companies involved and cooperate with combining seniority lists then it is nearly impossible for ALPA to merge the pilot groups. If ALPA hadn't killed the ASA/Comair attempt to join DALPA then management surely would have. And they'd have done it easily. The whole PID controversy and other ALPA proceedings were just an academic exercise.
And I have to agree with DALPA's decision on Compass. Theoretically, Bar is obviously correct. Unity would be great. But absent a merger, it would be completely unworkable for the same MEC to represent two different pilot groups with competing interests and management had no intention of ever merging Compass into mainline.
ALPA has significantly less power than Bucking Bar implies when it comes to achieving this elusive "unity" among the various pilot groups. Management likes their ability to whipsaw and stopping it is going to be incredibly difficult.
A couple opinions from an observer:
1) alfaromeo is denying that the sky is blue when he tries to minimize the role that ALPA and our contractual scope language plays in Delta's fleet decisions and their other joint venture and code-share arrangements. DALPA and management have been "constructively engaged" in outsourcing for a long time now. Moak truly believe(s)(d) that RJs saved Delta. Same goes for international alliances and revenue sharing in its various forms.
ALPA has clearly been a co-conspirator in outsourcing.
I hope they've realized the error and will reverse that policy going forward.
2) Bucking Bar often speaks as if ALPA can unilaterally mix and match pilot groups and seniority lists with relative ease and management and the government will just go along with whatever the union wants to do in that regard. He makes it sound like we could all be on one list and "unity" could be instantly achieved if only the people in charge of ALPA would stop standing in the way.
The fact is that the NMB and only the NMB decides who is in which bargaining units and if management does not merge the companies involved and cooperate with combining seniority lists then it is nearly impossible for ALPA to merge the pilot groups. If ALPA hadn't killed the ASA/Comair attempt to join DALPA then management surely would have. And they'd have done it easily. The whole PID controversy and other ALPA proceedings were just an academic exercise.
And I have to agree with DALPA's decision on Compass. Theoretically, Bar is obviously correct. Unity would be great. But absent a merger, it would be completely unworkable for the same MEC to represent two different pilot groups with competing interests and management had no intention of ever merging Compass into mainline.
ALPA has significantly less power than Bucking Bar implies when it comes to achieving this elusive "unity" among the various pilot groups. Management likes their ability to whipsaw and stopping it is going to be incredibly difficult.
Excellent post. We should expect our union to make its best effort for unity. It would be tremendously difficult, but it is the fight we must undertake if our union is going to be relevant (or even in existence) in the future.
Management is expected to act like management. When we negotiate scope relaxation and see Air France and Delta readjust flying beyond the 50/50 split taking an unfair advantage of what ALPA allowed, then I expect the union to complain. When perhaps several thousand Delta pilots get displaced in a waterfall as a result, I expect ALPA to rise up and start making a very public stink about the outsourcing that costs Americans' jobs.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-25-2012 at 05:53 AM.
02-25-2012, 05:43 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Gloppy
I fully expect management to ask for at least 255 more rj's to a 88 seat limit. (C-Seiries in a dual class config fwiw. That's what AMR is asking for and brcause of the C-Series jet). If they opt not to it is because they know what that openi g position will do to the majority of pilots. With AMR asking it makes it increasingly likely that UAL and DAL will put for the same proposal. We all have to stand strong on that issue.
I fully expect management to ask for at least 255 more rj's to a 88 seat limit. (C-Seiries in a dual class config fwiw. That's what AMR is asking for and brcause of the C-Series jet). If they opt not to it is because they know what that openi g position will do to the majority of pilots. With AMR asking it makes it increasingly likely that UAL and DAL will put for the same proposal. We all have to stand strong on that issue.
02-25-2012, 05:48 AM
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Management uses the selective disclosure of "proprietary" info to manipulate our union.
02-25-2012, 05:58 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
I'll take a shot with a 777 DTW dart. There are a number of pilots who live in ATL who commute to DTW to fly. A number of these pilots have been interested in bidding back to ATL, but have not been able to.
My prediction: DTW 777 FOs will bid to ATL 777 and A 330. Additionally, VDs from DTW 777B went senior on the last bid - further demonstrating the pent up desire to bid out. IOW, my guess is that none of them will bid the 88, half of the FOs can hold the 73n, 320, 767, 7er, 330 and 777 left seat.
FTB, here's your chance to be an 88A.
My prediction: DTW 777 FOs will bid to ATL 777 and A 330. Additionally, VDs from DTW 777B went senior on the last bid - further demonstrating the pent up desire to bid out. IOW, my guess is that none of them will bid the 88, half of the FOs can hold the 73n, 320, 767, 7er, 330 and 777 left seat.
FTB, here's your chance to be an 88A.
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