Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-21-2012, 06:21 AM
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: MSP7ERB
Posts: 1,886
Yo Carl, I like your line of thinking: not SWAPA pay rates, but the whole SWAPA contract! I wonder how the NMB would react. Likewise I'd like to see management's conniption.
02-21-2012, 06:40 AM
Kerbal Rocket Surgeon
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DTW 717A
Posts: 1,099
FINALLY! Someone writes the correct question!!!!!
George, that is the question we need to ask when engineering scope language. Scope has to be built for disasters, knowing that economic duress will place our contract under stress. Just as buildings codes assume earthquakes, fires, floods and storm.
The much ballyhoo's Contract 2000 included a number of block hour ratio provisions, limits on the operation of DCI aircraft and competing aircraft. People forget that these scope provisions failed nearly immediately after Contract 2000 was in force. I've got to get out some old dusty notes, but I think we gave up what today we would call "production balance" within 60 days of the contract's effective date. Regardless of whether it was 60 days, or 600, we all know what happened; Delta went from 90+% of its departures to somewhere around 40%. I think we can agree that when tested by economic stress, our scope sustained a structural failure.
Next question ... "why'd we do that?"
Pilots need to understand why we outsource. We outsource our flying in the hope Delta will make more money, some portion of which will be paid to us. ALPA partners with management in outsourcing our work (and lets not kid ourselves, the DPA would do the same).
When times get tough, the Company needs more money, desperately. The last thing they'll do is sever their profitable outsourcing strategy. The union's history shows their agreement when the Company is in dire straights. They'll write "better to save all pilots rather than saving a few."
The model then falls into traps of greed and fear. In good times we want more money funded by outsourcing, in bad times we want to avoid the whole outfit going out of business. That is why we now shrink in good times and bad. We are decoupled from the real performance of our airline.
The only long term answer is unity. We must perform our own flying and take the ups and downs with our Company.
George, that is the question we need to ask when engineering scope language. Scope has to be built for disasters, knowing that economic duress will place our contract under stress. Just as buildings codes assume earthquakes, fires, floods and storm.
The much ballyhoo's Contract 2000 included a number of block hour ratio provisions, limits on the operation of DCI aircraft and competing aircraft. People forget that these scope provisions failed nearly immediately after Contract 2000 was in force. I've got to get out some old dusty notes, but I think we gave up what today we would call "production balance" within 60 days of the contract's effective date. Regardless of whether it was 60 days, or 600, we all know what happened; Delta went from 90+% of its departures to somewhere around 40%. I think we can agree that when tested by economic stress, our scope sustained a structural failure.
Next question ... "why'd we do that?"
Pilots need to understand why we outsource. We outsource our flying in the hope Delta will make more money, some portion of which will be paid to us. ALPA partners with management in outsourcing our work (and lets not kid ourselves, the DPA would do the same).
When times get tough, the Company needs more money, desperately. The last thing they'll do is sever their profitable outsourcing strategy. The union's history shows their agreement when the Company is in dire straights. They'll write "better to save all pilots rather than saving a few."
The model then falls into traps of greed and fear. In good times we want more money funded by outsourcing, in bad times we want to avoid the whole outfit going out of business. That is why we now shrink in good times and bad. We are decoupled from the real performance of our airline.
The only long term answer is unity. We must perform our own flying and take the ups and downs with our Company.
I bring this up because while I agree with your assessment about the reasons behind scope concessions, I don't think that the end result helps the company in the long-term. On paper it may appear that they are reducing costs each year by outsourcing your flying but it's my opinion that the reduced quality of customer experience which results from the outsourcing ends up costing more in revenue as repeat customers go to other modes of transportation.
02-21-2012, 06:54 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Actually that was my other idea I put in the survey, no more like paint schemes, they cannot look like Delta or each other. Immage the color carnage on ramp 3 in ATL or all of terminal B in DTW, LGA and MEM. It'd hopefully scare the heck out of the public, create mass confusion and therefore... never be done. But I want it.
I'd love to see mainline hiring to fill the billions of dollars of RJs and I hope you're right back in yours. With a double breasted jacket, a hat, and a propensity to talk about underboob.
I'd love to see mainline hiring to fill the billions of dollars of RJs and I hope you're right back in yours. With a double breasted jacket, a hat, and a propensity to talk about underboob.
02-21-2012, 06:58 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: SLC ERB
Posts: 467
I agree - there is probably much of the SWAPA contract that would be great for DL pilots (their scope is hard to beat) - but the whole contract, in it's entirety, without modification? I don't see how that would even work.
02-21-2012, 07:04 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
I've been thinking about scope today.
Imagine a sine wave with an amplitude of +/- 100. This is Delta's demand signal for pilot labor. Over a five-year period, the number of DAL pilots on the list meets the demand between +/- 80. Perhaps RJs and code shares should provide a "labor buffer" for those times when the need goes below -80 or above +80. This flattens the demand wave, which makes the airline more nimble since it isn't directly responsible for the employment of those in the +/- 80-100 pools.
Imagine a sine wave with an amplitude of +/- 100. This is Delta's demand signal for pilot labor. Over a five-year period, the number of DAL pilots on the list meets the demand between +/- 80. Perhaps RJs and code shares should provide a "labor buffer" for those times when the need goes below -80 or above +80. This flattens the demand wave, which makes the airline more nimble since it isn't directly responsible for the employment of those in the +/- 80-100 pools.
In practice a little different model comes into play.
Today, to attend Delta's outsourcing party you have to BYOA (Bring Your Own Airplane). Folks won't pick up a $30 million dollar jet without a firm, long term, commitment. They seek the longest, strongest, contract they can get to lock Delta in. They want 30 years, Delta wants 30 days, they seem to compromise around 5 years (on average).
Under contract Delta is locked in, meaning that capacity is paid for whether it flies or not. So where is the real accumulator in the system? What part of Delta's network is unencumbered by debt and can be parked with minimal economic cost? .... You can tell an accumulator by what it does ... "we're expanding MD88 flying" "no we are getting rid of the DC9's" "we're keeping the DC9's" "We're getting more MD90's" "no, we aren't" ... "DC9's until 2013" It all depends on the configuration of our Corporate airplane that instant, are we landing, departing, or going missed?
Ironic that the only airplane in the fleet with unpressurized hydraulic reservoirs are our job accumulators. As we suck up the gear and the flaps for a nice flight in 2012, we'll see the MD88 accumulator get filled. If we lose an engine and expect an emergency landing, that same accumulator will be drained.
02-21-2012, 07:09 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
I bring this up because while I agree with your assessment about the reasons behind scope concessions, I don't think that the end result helps the company in the long-term. On paper it may appear that they are reducing costs each year by outsourcing your flying but it's my opinion that the reduced quality of customer experience which results from the outsourcing ends up costing more in revenue as repeat customers go to other modes of transportation.
It has to be more efficient to insource for the right rates.
02-21-2012, 07:11 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Bar,
Great points. If DAL need to shrink and the DCI arm of DAL is at their floors in the CPA, the bottom DAL jets are the accumulator.
Glad to see everyone getting called on the survey.
Great points. If DAL need to shrink and the DCI arm of DAL is at their floors in the CPA, the bottom DAL jets are the accumulator.
Glad to see everyone getting called on the survey.
02-21-2012, 07:12 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
Posts: 1,898
Having seen the Fred Smith Show from the Jumpseat, it is indeed a thing of beauty. Cheers!
02-21-2012, 07:20 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Bar,
On a side note, it is impressive to see the progression at airlines that want to perform their own flying.
NKS has upgrades under five years
Emirates looks like they are going with Direct Entry Capt's
Hawaiian has grown their pilot group by over 25% in the last year
ALK has impressive growth numbers
I said a few weeks ago that DAL is trying to find how much they can shrink before their RASM starts to hit the back side of the power curve. Last month they still saw a 14% increase in RASM. I would say that they can shrink a little further as long as it does not effect the efficency of their hub network.
On a side note, it is impressive to see the progression at airlines that want to perform their own flying.
NKS has upgrades under five years
Emirates looks like they are going with Direct Entry Capt's
Hawaiian has grown their pilot group by over 25% in the last year
ALK has impressive growth numbers
I said a few weeks ago that DAL is trying to find how much they can shrink before their RASM starts to hit the back side of the power curve. Last month they still saw a 14% increase in RASM. I would say that they can shrink a little further as long as it does not effect the efficency of their hub network.
02-21-2012, 07:22 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
People
Service
Profit
Great book written many years ago on FDX. They know what their people want to be happy and provide max effort.
BTW, a few of my friends over there state that they are about ready to announce a large 757/767 order and as a result wil open their app window again.
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