Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-20-2012, 02:30 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Not flaming.. just asking...
02-20-2012, 02:34 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
That argument pops up from time to time and I believe it is a red herring.
What if our reps and MEC bureaucrats believe this is the best they can do but at the same time recognize that it is unacceptable to the pilot group. What to do? Take a proposal to the negotiating table that you THINK won't be acceptable and that you THINK the big bad wolf (NMB) will blow your house down over? Or take a proposal to the negotiating table that is well below what is acceptable to your pilot group and then try to sell us on the idea that it was the best we could do and there is unacceptable risk in voting it down? Which sounds more like what we've experienced before?
This is just my opinion, but I think a lot of these guys (reps and bureaucrats) get so caught up in the minutia and in their own world of challenges that they lose sight of principle and the big picture. I don't think any (or at least most) of them want anything less than the most we can get. Sure it effects them! But I think many of them are so caught up in their world of proactive engagement that they don't want to do anything to possibly jeopardize that. It's not hard for management's professional negotiators to figure out who they're dealing with, what motivates them, and what scares them.
Getting a restorative contract and reeling in scope is NOT going to be easy. It will involve risk. None of us got to where we are by avoiding things that are difficult and by taking zero risk. Let's not get so caught up in the size of the challenge we face that we give up. Just my 2 cents...
What if our reps and MEC bureaucrats believe this is the best they can do but at the same time recognize that it is unacceptable to the pilot group. What to do? Take a proposal to the negotiating table that you THINK won't be acceptable and that you THINK the big bad wolf (NMB) will blow your house down over? Or take a proposal to the negotiating table that is well below what is acceptable to your pilot group and then try to sell us on the idea that it was the best we could do and there is unacceptable risk in voting it down? Which sounds more like what we've experienced before?
This is just my opinion, but I think a lot of these guys (reps and bureaucrats) get so caught up in the minutia and in their own world of challenges that they lose sight of principle and the big picture. I don't think any (or at least most) of them want anything less than the most we can get. Sure it effects them! But I think many of them are so caught up in their world of proactive engagement that they don't want to do anything to possibly jeopardize that. It's not hard for management's professional negotiators to figure out who they're dealing with, what motivates them, and what scares them.
Getting a restorative contract and reeling in scope is NOT going to be easy. It will involve risk. None of us got to where we are by avoiding things that are difficult and by taking zero risk. Let's not get so caught up in the size of the challenge we face that we give up. Just my 2 cents...
02-20-2012, 02:35 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
newKnow is every bit of the mythical creature i envisioned him. He makes his new plane think its a childs toy when he flys it. I can only imagine how the -9 felt....
i snapped a pic of newk doing some chair flying this morning actually, i was intimidated to say the least
i snapped a pic of newk doing some chair flying this morning actually, i was intimidated to say the least
02-20-2012, 02:56 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 581
My personal opinion is the high water mark in terms of compensation for Delta pilots were the last pay rates from Contract 2000, which IIRC took place in 2004.
In terms of opening pay rates anything significantly above those rates (after adjusting for inflation) would be unreasonable, but I would also include the work rules and benefits from that contract (and make an adjustment for the change in retirement plans).
02-20-2012, 03:01 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
Here's a great quote from Hawaiian CEO Mark Dunkerley.
Delta codeshares with Hawaiian for inter-island flying, so you would think when HA flies to the mainland, Delta would get the chance to provide connections, but alas, HA selected JetBlue for domestic codeshare in NYC.
Better yet, citing the reason why Hawaiian would enter the NYC market, Hawaiian CEO Dunkerley points to the capacity constraint improving yields on domestic connections feeding Hawaii flights.
Delta's guidance is showing capacity cut by 2% for 2012 to support further yield improvements. On the other hand JetBlue guidance for 2012 shows capacity up 5.5%-7.5% for 2012. Delta's course of capacity constraint is improving domestic yields for all airlines. JetBlue is taking advantage of it by growing twice as fast as we are shrinking. On top of that Delta's codeshare partner in Hawaii, now is codeshareing with JetBlue on the mainland...
I'm not against codeshare arrangements per-se, in-fact I believe there are many instances where codeshare provides a mutually beneficial relationship for the corporation and for the pilots.
Unfortunately the number of Delta pax placed on codeshare carriers far exceeds the number of codeshare pax placed on Delta. An the net result is displacements all around while the corporation is making record profits.
This needs to be fixed!
Cheers
George
Delta codeshares with Hawaiian for inter-island flying, so you would think when HA flies to the mainland, Delta would get the chance to provide connections, but alas, HA selected JetBlue for domestic codeshare in NYC.
Better yet, citing the reason why Hawaiian would enter the NYC market, Hawaiian CEO Dunkerley points to the capacity constraint improving yields on domestic connections feeding Hawaii flights.
"One of the reasons why we didn't serve this market over the course of the last decade, and indeed why nobody did, is yields on the continental portion of a connecting itinerary to Hawaii were low," says Dunkerley. "As a consequence the trip cost to Hawaii was unattractive." But now Dunkerley concludes that in a world "in which domestic continental yields are going up, the yields for Hawaii are firming. We now believe that the fare and cost environment is attractive."
I'm not against codeshare arrangements per-se, in-fact I believe there are many instances where codeshare provides a mutually beneficial relationship for the corporation and for the pilots.
Unfortunately the number of Delta pax placed on codeshare carriers far exceeds the number of codeshare pax placed on Delta. An the net result is displacements all around while the corporation is making record profits.
This needs to be fixed!
Cheers
George
02-20-2012, 03:04 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Listen, you're much more knowledgeable about the process than I am, but explain to me why, if another organization representing us were able to get the company to agree to a greater percentage wage increase why the NMB would step in and say, "No, not possible." You're assuming your present bargaining agent is going to get the most the company is willing to agree to, which I don't consider a given. Explain to me why that is not a possibility.
That being said, I am one who thinks the alternative could possibly be better in the long run, but for now have resolved to stay with who I have. They have my full support; there is unity. But that doesn't mean if I'm taken for granted I won't look elsewhere. The argument that my consideration of other options is somehow showing a lack of support or reflects a lack of unity is insulting and annoys me to no end. They need to show me they deserve my business.
That being said, I am one who thinks the alternative could possibly be better in the long run, but for now have resolved to stay with who I have. They have my full support; there is unity. But that doesn't mean if I'm taken for granted I won't look elsewhere. The argument that my consideration of other options is somehow showing a lack of support or reflects a lack of unity is insulting and annoys me to no end. They need to show me they deserve my business.
Excellent post. As Bar would say, "tip o the hat."
02-20-2012, 03:20 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
I know you are joking but you are actually on to something. The only problem is that your rate decrease is far too large. Think what would happen to a turn with 7 hours of block and a 1 hour turn time. Even adding in a 1 hour pre-flight and a 1/2 hour post-flight you would have 9 1/2 hours of duty.
Scoop
Scoop
But I like your idea that it's not enough. Say there is a Captain at $150/hr flying on average 7 hours a day on a 10 hour duty day for 10 days a month, 7 x 10 x 10 x 150/hr. Under the current system he'd be paid $1050/day, $10.5K a month and $126/yr. With the same rate but paid by duty hour you'd make it $1600/day, $16K/mo and $192/yr or $66K more a year. Even if you made 15% less you're making $37K more a year.
I think that's fair Scoop.
Plus we can counter the "but if we pay you that then everyone will want a pay raise" to which we say that now the pilots don't get a raise, our rates stayed the same.
I wasn't kidding btw, I put it in the survey.
02-20-2012, 03:21 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
You're assuming your present bargaining agent is going to get the most the company is willing to agree to, which I don't consider a given. Explain to me why that is not a possibility.
What makes you think that Jesse's lack of confidence in the current bargaining agent's ability to deliver the best possible outcome is in any way less valid a point than your similar sentiments towards the current administrations ability for the country?
That seems like a logical short circuit to me...Unless your definition of best possible outcome differs greatly from that of Jesse's.
Cheers
George
02-20-2012, 03:28 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Delta codeshares with Hawaiian for inter-island flying, so you would think when HA flies to the mainland, Delta would get the chance to provide connections, but alas, HA selected JetBlue for domestic codeshare in NYC.
....
Delta's guidance is showing capacity cut by 2% for 2012 to support further yield improvements. On the other hand JetBlue guidance for 2012 shows capacity up 5.5%-7.5% for 2012. Delta's course of capacity constraint is improving domestic yields for all airlines. JetBlue is taking advantage of it by growing twice as fast as we are shrinking. On top of that Delta's codeshare partner in Hawaii, now is codeshareing with JetBlue on the mainland...
This needs to be fixed!
Cheers
George
....
Delta's guidance is showing capacity cut by 2% for 2012 to support further yield improvements. On the other hand JetBlue guidance for 2012 shows capacity up 5.5%-7.5% for 2012. Delta's course of capacity constraint is improving domestic yields for all airlines. JetBlue is taking advantage of it by growing twice as fast as we are shrinking. On top of that Delta's codeshare partner in Hawaii, now is codeshareing with JetBlue on the mainland...
This needs to be fixed!
Cheers
George
More to the point, Hawaiian wants to be a growing, dynamic, airline. Best to partner with a growing, dynamic, airline. Who needs a slowly consolidating legacy carrier? Our partner's only interest in us is as an organ donor.
It would be an interesting curiosity, but for the fact this airline's capacity reductions will cost me at least $11,000 this year. Pulling together for Delta's success? Really Richard? Then why did you outsource my job?
02-20-2012, 03:29 PM
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 793
I'm curious. Why do you think that DALPA "takes you for granted"? I don't think that is the case.. well not anymore anyway. Yes, I am giving credit to the donuts for the wakeup call. DALPA has realized that they need to do a better job of communication.. but I think saying that you are being taken for granted is a bit of a stretch. JMHO
THe first part of your post seemed to me to be a bit of Obomaesque pie in the sky hopey changey rhetoric. Unfortunately.. or fortunately depending on your POV, the donut shop has to do nothing at this point other than make promises. Whether or not they actually have the means to deliver ANYTHING is unknown. The un-fortunate thing is that they will have to kill the king of the hill in order to get their shot, and I am not so sure that the risk is worth it.. definitely not now.. but even in the future.
Either way, there was a post earlier in the thread or maybe the other one.. that asked the DPA to stand down in a show of unity and resurrect their campaign after the contract. I think that would be the prudent thing to do, but I am afraid that there are other agendas at play there... you be your own judge, but I have seen enough from them to make my own decision.
THe first part of your post seemed to me to be a bit of Obomaesque pie in the sky hopey changey rhetoric. Unfortunately.. or fortunately depending on your POV, the donut shop has to do nothing at this point other than make promises. Whether or not they actually have the means to deliver ANYTHING is unknown. The un-fortunate thing is that they will have to kill the king of the hill in order to get their shot, and I am not so sure that the risk is worth it.. definitely not now.. but even in the future.
Either way, there was a post earlier in the thread or maybe the other one.. that asked the DPA to stand down in a show of unity and resurrect their campaign after the contract. I think that would be the prudent thing to do, but I am afraid that there are other agendas at play there... you be your own judge, but I have seen enough from them to make my own decision.
As for their standing down, I respect the ingenuity of using that card to try and quiet the efforts being made on behalf of the concerned, but I don't buy it. DALPA knows they have the full support of getting everything they can for its pilots, and their efforts should not be affected by possible suspicions or made up "rumor" that they don't have a unified force. Have you spoken to a rep who has voiced this as a concern? In what way does DPA affect their desire to not achieve the best possible outcome? If anything, the opposite would seem to be true: get the best contract you can for your pilots because if there's widespread dissatisfaction then DPA becomes even more viable. If the concern is unity then DALPA could have allowed DPA a vote without the requirement for signing up 51% of pilots as a gesture toward showing its desire to be a unified pilot group, no matter the representation. No, such a suggestion is not the true reason for asking DPA to stand down for a year.
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