Superpilot92

Bingo!!! !

alfaromeo

Carl that is just not true. There was a very large expense to bring NWA up to the Delta contract. Don't you remember all the whining you did about Letter 19? Don't you remember Dave Stevens whining in Congress about a B-Scale? Don't you remember all that? If the contracts were equal, then why were you guys crying?

As for the stiffening of the spine I will repeat my earlier comment, results always trump rhetoric.

Tomcat

Well Alfa, I've spoken to Lee about Scope three different times. I Know what he said and I know what he did. There in lies the problem. If the Union and Lee think that the pilot group has the wrong perception of where they stand on Scope, whose problem is that? This is politics, and in politics, perception is 99% of reality. Personally, I no longer care what our Union says, I care what they DO. Words are cheap my friend...... Let's see some action from our Union, there is a storm on the horizon and it's starting at the grass-roots level. It's time for DALPA to regain control of the SCOPE issue and that means bringing they flying back within mainline.

TC

FedElta

Guys,

At my previous employer we went from non-union to boy's club, to in-house union, to ALPA, to in-house union, to ALPA.......without the national resources we would have neve negotiated an industry leading contract.

However, without " member ratification " on all loa's, ta's, etc, alpa would NEVER have been voted back on the property.

Even this protection did not prevent the membership from approving a woefully inadequate LOA for new foreign domiciles......as supported by the MEC chairman.

Do current ALPA by-laws contain framework to require member ratification on loa's, side letters, etc? Sea lawyers? Anyone?
Regards,

newKnow

I think the first thing ALPA needs to do is hire a team of professional negotiators (non-pilots) to do our bidding.

Free Bird

+1 .......

alfaromeo

Okay, and I have known and worked with Lee off an on for almost 20 years. The problem is that people have made this issue hyper-emotional and when that happens they lose perspective. So at least if we are going to deal with the issue, let's deal with facts and not fables.

Lee is very careful about what he says and he would never say ever that he thinks it's good for Delta pilots to have DCI pilots make low wages. First, that statement makes no sense, second he does not believe that. So let's at least put that legend to rest.

What action do you want? You are a single issue person and are somewhat obsessed with this topic. Guess what, there are many other issues to deal with now. Do you really want to open up the contract right now and start talking about big issues? Is this really a good time for that?

While it is easy to pop off on a web board about some issue, it is much tougher to actually accomplish the task. Maybe you could just take a bigger view sometime and think about the multitude of emergency procedures that we have been dealing with in the last five years. In case you forgot, Delta was pretty close to being left for dead in early 2006. We are just 3 years beyond that and are now with the largest airline in the world and hooked up with Air France/KLM in a joint venture. Oh yeah, did I forget that we fought off a hostile takeover that would have cut our pilot force by a one third.

That in itself is better job protection than you can ever write into a contract. Rather than sit back and watch this change happen to us, DALPA has been at the forefront of managing this change and has gotten important contractual advancements at the same time. I am sorry but if you can't see the actions that were required to pull that off then it is pretty pointless arguing with you.

So I see a storm of a handful of people complaining of web boards about how other people are not working hard enough for them, but that is not a mass effort. Your basic problem is that want simple solutions to complicated problems and you want it now. My question back to you is what are you doing about this other than complaining on web boards. Why don't you go to your local representative and find out what you can do for your union. You would be surprised at the amount of work that needs to be done. It takes more time than banging on the keyboard but you might actually accomplish somethng rather than complaining about others.

acl65pilot

Alfa you are correct, Lee is very skillful,and has done a ton of things that will equate to the betterment of this group. I do not that most people will argue that. The issue is one issue. To tag people as single issue people is a little bit of a misconception. Most people are just complaining about the one issue they see that the MEC has not acted in the best interests of the pilots on.
I think a lot of it is fear. Most people "fear" the loss of the 100 seat jet, and IMHO rightfully so. It is at our door step. We let this and the 70+ seat market go, the company can and will find a way to replace the 9 and probably the 88 flying with DCI jets. I agree with the fear. No communication leads people to become fearful of their leaders actions.

My opinion is different. I have had a few face to face chats with LM. Fact is that he would never say DCI wages being lower is better for us. He allows people to come to that conclusion without a very long walk with the same talking points he uses every time this issue is discussed. I could go in to it, but many people that have met him and talked to him about this know exactly what I am talking about. It in a word or two is politics and word-smithing.
The fact is that I have heard LM state that DCI is good for the Delta pilots. I know the E and A agreements that he is using, and they are correct to a point. I do not agree with all of it, not by along shot. I know we need to recapture the 70+ seat market. It can profitably be done here, and do not state otherwise.

I have been sitting here the last few days and trying to connect the dots. Fact is that I see something huge going on. I see the union very involved it in. It is covered under a NDA to be sure, but there is something very big going on. The union's only job is to make sure that whatever happens it need to benefit the pilot group. Selling scope, flying et al, does not help us. I know you know that.
What the union leadership should be very aware of is that its membership is very unhappy the way they have dealt with this issue. Part of that is lack of communication for whatever reason. As pilots that have opted to serve the membership, it is their job to change their perception and align their beliefs with that of the membership that has elected them. If it is one in the same it all can be dealt with, with some very good communication that has been in my opinion lacking.
just my .02

RoughLandings

CPZ pilot here. My feelings about this issue are very much in line with those of my brethren. I would like to stay a part of DALPA (if DALPA needs us to take care of ourselves, why not a separate LEC?). I would gladly accept a DAL seniority number, even if it meant a furlough. I also think that the flow-through should stay in place, even if the first two don't happen.

My question is this: if DAL decides to dump the Shuttle America E175s (or transfer them to CPZ, whatever), wouldn't this be a perfect time for DALPA to make a play to get the EMB 170/190 type scoped in at DAL, ala Air Canada? I guess seeing all those EMB products in mainline paint up in the great north has make me see the light.

Thoughts?

satchip

Alfa (great car BTW), I have generally agreed with LM and his approach to union/management relations. As a student of history/economics/politics for the last 20 or so years I see where militant unionism has led. Except for government, the old model of union strategy has led to declining numbers of members and results. The last thing I want our union to become is the UAW. Well, maybe not a great example now with you know who in the big house.

I see the value that the current MEC has produced and think that only Lee's approach would have been that successful. I aggree with everything you have said about our MEC vs the North's. We are much better off for it.

But, and it's a big but, this scope issue is really scaring me! I trusted LM when he said in INDOC that he represents the most senior pilot to the most jurnior pilot. The condesention and the lack of information on the Scope issue though is maddening. It's engouh for me to start listening to Carl!

Every senior captain I fly with cares not a whit about scope. I see a big devide in the group over this issue. When the divide is between junior and senior we all know who loses that battle.

Listen to ACL, Tomcat, and others. Our perception is that we are being covered in poop and told it's chocolate. If the MEC's position is truly good for the entire group then explain to us. If it's just good for a certain segement of the group, then tell us that too. I am sure I am not the only fencesitter on the pro/con MEC issue.