Whidbey

When my commanding officers would tell me why I should stay in the Navy, I often got the feeling they were trying to see their own decisions validated by seeing someone else repeat them, rather than advocating for my best interest. Guys going after ACL for talking about Emirates remind me of that.

I definitely think there is a bright future for Delta Air Lines, but the word is out (at least in the active duty military) that with respect to pay, it's a third or fourth choice.

One great thing about Delta is the high quality of Captain you get to fly with. It's obvious that when they were hired, Delta was for the most part getting the cream of the crop. I agree that management probably doesn't care about turn over, but I do think this next contract is going to completely determine the quality of pilots we're able to attract heading into future hiring.

Bucking Bar

Whidby,

Just an opinion, but there is a wide disconnect within Delta about their pilots. To the network guy, we are a simple commodity. They'd price shop us with less discretion than they put towards buying spaghetti noodles at Kroger if they could. They just want cheap, heard them say "GoJets is the best ..." earlier this week.

To flight operations management, we are the best, expected to know our stuff, help market the Company, something to take pride in, the cream of the crop.

It boils down to what makes it easier to do their job. Flight Operations management expects us to be the best because that makes their job easier. Network just wants the cheapest because that makes their job easier. At the end of the day Network decides if we fly, which is why scope is absolutely critical. (I dare say most pilots here don't understand that management wants to replace them)

You are completely correct about the Captains here. Great folks.

Delta's future is uncertain. IMHO it all hinges on scope. Currently we are on a trend could best be described as the slow liquidation of the Company. As things stand currently, leaving Delta to fly for Emirates is clearly a way to earn substantially more money for the bottom 40% of or list. As Delta shrinks and upgrades go out 15-20 years it becomes almost nonsensical (from a pure economic view) to remain at Delta for most people hired since 2000.

My expectations are brighter than what Delta Management is telling us. I think they have to close the scope gap and have to put my faith in ALPA that they will not go along with outsourcing that work. Eventually, we'll start growing widebody international flying and have some hope for a turn around at the end of 2013 as the jets get off the mod line and adjustments are needed to bring us into compliance with out JV window.

DAL 88 Driver

Yep. And that applies to the entire industry too.

For example... regional pay. It's always been low. But it was a relatively temporary stop (maybe 5 years or so) on the way to a job at the majors with outstanding compensation and a tremendous retirement. Now, the civilian guys get stuck with a huge amount of debt getting through flight school, get stuck at a regional making less than a Taco Bell store manager for God knows how long... and then when/if they finally get to a major, the career is worth about HALF of what it used to be. From what I understand, a lot of the military guys can't justify making the jump anymore either with what it pays.

At Delta, we have an opportunity with this next contract to turn this profession around and most likely save lives (yes, the lack of quality pilots WILL become a major safety issue in this industry if it hasn't already). Delta missed a huge opportunity back in 2005 to preserve the quality of this profession when they instead chose to do the "monkey see, monkey do" thing along with everyone else. Will they miss this opportunity? Are they really that short sighted? Cause if they don't help fix this, it's eventually going to bite them in the @ss.

freightguy

Oh no my friend.... I quoted in USD and I did not qoute max pay either. Here is a break down for you:

The following is Tiger salary. They get a base pay of SGD11,000 + SGD113 for every hour after the first 20.

(Basic S$11000 but includes 20hrs flying. $113 per hour over 20 hrs).

Tiger is just about to announce an increased pay rate, beacuse they are losing some pilots to other LCCs in the area. And Tiger Australia is a different subsidiary than Tiger Singapore. Tiger Singapore has been running pretty falwlessly so far.

At the end of the day, we are still comparing ourselves to some LCC. Some bottom feeder LCC is still paying way more than what we're paying. DAL is nowhere close to the top in payscale for a global pilot.

And Tiger is just an example. There are plenty others in the region which pays even better than them.

georgetg

Bar, no kidding, I heard the network guys say without missing a beat he prefers the MD90 over the 738 because it has lower pilot cost on comparable routes. This is in a briefing to a roomful of pilots...
I don't want to imagine what the network guys say behind our back...

Agree on FltOps Mgmt. It's a shame they don't have the clout in the Delta hierarchy to effectively back that sentiment up with results. Sounds like they get a lot of pushback from up higher...

Cheers
George

freightguy

You are partially correct. I don't think a DAL 320 captain will gain much by going to Tiger, Jetstar, Air Asia etc. But for DAL FOs, it is a different story. Many of us still qualify for some of the captain seats in the Far East and the ensuing pay which is close to three times as much as what I'm making as a widebody FO at Delta. Nobody is laughing at my NWA furloughee friend who turned down DAL for Tiger. He is doing pretty good. DAL management or DAL pilots can laugh all they want... he still makes two to three times more than his peers (in his seniority range).

Bucking Bar

George,

Yeah. Once in a LCA meeting at a subsidiary, a Delta manager walked in and heard complaining about a few things that were running on the edge of an incident or accident. His comment sent a cold chill up my spine:


That's the attitude they have to have to commoditize pilot services and outsource them. Once it accepted (and it has been accepted for a long time, the Buffalo crash excepted) that if you can get a guy through a check ride, his Captain, or the System, will save 'em.

For the "rest of the story" this manager now manages the front desk a flight school. Quite a long fall from President of an airline with a larger fleet than Alaska's. The funny thing is, he has not changed: "The process had its challenges however this facilty was opened in Novemeber of 2009, allows Falcon Aviation Services to continue to grow while providing adequate service our customers expect." That's a direct cut paste quote including his inability to spell November. That's the quality of work that gets a manager a million dollar bonus in bankruptcy.

forgot to bid

Bacon. Completely unnecessary.

Tsquare and I aren't on the same side of the ALPA debate either but a lot of discretion is in order here.

Just making a big generalization here but it's probably the case that T has more experience than you or I, more seniority than you or I and more insurance...



sorry T, that line is still funny.

Bucking Bar

I agree with that statement. After a split the stock will definitely go up, or go down.

With commentary like that, you'd be a shoo in to replace Jamie Baker at JP Morgan.

Actually, your track record is a lot better than Jamie's $8 target on AA when they entered bankruptcy.

TOGA LK

Tiger Australia! Omg...... That brings back awesome memories. I wanna go.
NOW