Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-14-2012, 02:19 AM
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Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,105
Originally Posted by JungleBus:1134604
Correct. You'll find very few people at CPS who are happy we're doing flying like this anywhere other than mainline. I can understand why it was given up in BK but have since been frustrated that DALPA feels zero need to look at recapturing scope. It's simply not a priority for them. It should be. As my post was meant to demonstrate, we're doing some pretty plum trips that any DC9/MD88/A320 guy would be happy to fly. Wasn't trying to be arrogant. Was trying to demonstrate this is something worth fighting for. There's been a whole lot of "wow, this stagnation sucks!" on the thread lately, and not so much "well let's do something about it!"
02-14-2012, 02:32 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Still in one
Posts: 784
I suppose if you are already in as high a seat as you are going to go all you care about is the compensation.
Sadly many F/O's are already there. Even more sadly in a merger or acquisition the growth that we have fueled at other carriers could take another bite out of your career progression in an SLI.
02-14-2012, 02:53 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
New York
New York’s Smallest Planes Dwindle as Delta Hub Ousts Turboprops
By Mary Jane Credeur - Feb 14, 2012 12:01 AM ET
New York’s smallest passenger planes are poised to fade away as Delta Air Lines Inc. (DAL) builds a domestic hub at LaGuardia Airport served chiefly by bigger jets.
US Airways Group Inc. (LCC), the region’s largest operator of aircraft like the 37-seat Dash-8 turboprop, is paring commuter flights to upstate cities such as Albany and Syracuse while pulling back in New York. Filling the gap is Delta, which is focused on larger jets -- and no turboprops.
Once vital to carriers serving thinly populated markets, airliners that carry only a few dozen fliers now are seen by management and travelers in a harsher light: Too costly with fuel almost doubling since 2007, too small for amenities such as first-class cabins, and too loud and cramped.
“The jets are more comfortable, more reliable, cleaner, quieter,” said Doug Pinckney, 47, who is president of advertising firm Pinckney Hugo Group in Syracuse and flies to LaGuardia every two to three weeks. “It’s a better airplane. I can’t wait for the switch.”
Delta is using landing rights from a trade with US Airways to expand daily LaGuardia departures by 75 percent, to 264, by July. The world’s second-biggest airline will control half of all LaGuardia flights by then, according to data compiled by OAG, a unit of UBM Aviation in Bedfordshire, England.
More than three-quarters of the flights will be on jets with at least 70 seats. Planes in that category, such as larger models of Bombardier Inc. (BBD/B)’s CRJ series, will have a business- class cabin, a few rows of coach seats with extra legroom, and Wi-Fi, said Gail Grimmett, Delta’s vice president for New York.
‘Very Powerful’
“The ability to go to New York corporate travelers and say ‘We have all-jet service’ is very powerful,” said Henry Harteveldt, an airline analyst at Atmosphere Research Group LLC in San Francisco. “Delta’s offering will be quite compelling.”
Delta’s mainline jets on LaGuardia routes include Airbus SAS (EAD) A319s and Boeing Co. (BA) MD-80s. US Airways’s plan to shrink at LaGuardia by about two-thirds to 65 daily departures while keeping jet shuttle flights to Washington and Boston means that many of the Dash-8s in New York will go elsewhere, though a spokesman, Todd Lehmacher, declined to give a number.
US Airways subsidiaries were flying 44 Dash-8s as of December 2010, or almost half the carrier’s regional planes, according to the latest annual report. The airline received landing rights at Washington’s Reagan National from Delta in exchange for more LaGuardia access, giving Tempe, Arizona-based US Airways a chance to cut money-losing New York flights to and from small cities.
Dropping Albany
“A few turboprops” will remain at LaGuardia to serve cities such as Philadelphia, Lehmacher said. Nonstop routes to Syracuse and Albany are among those getting the ax, based on schedule data. Most of the planes being pulled from New York will go to Washington or Charlotte, North Carolina, Lehmacher said.
“The Dash-8 has been a workhorse for us,” he said. “It’s a remarkable plane and really allows us to serve a lot of markets that we couldn’t profitably serve with other aircraft.”
Pinckney, the advertising executive, is looking forward to larger planes after taking US Airways Dash-8s to LaGuardia to meet clients. The planes originally were made by de Havilland, now a part of Bombardier.
“Turboprops are very noisy,” Pinckney said. “It’s hard to work on them and if you get stuck back in the corner you feel really boxed in.”
U.S. airlines’ turboprop fleet has tumbled 67 percent to 416 planes since the start of the last decade, while 70-seat jets surged 21-fold to 433, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. The smallest regional jets, those with 50 or fewer seats, have declined 18 percent from a 2005 peak of 1,356.
‘Largely Replaced’
“Turboprops have been waning since at least 2000 and were largely replaced by the 50-seat jet,” said George Ferguson, senior aerospace analyst for Bloomberg Industries. “Then 50- seat jets grew until the increased cost of fuel stopped the growth.”
The small-airliner fleet in New York includes a half-dozen turboprops flown by Pinnacle Airlines Corp. (PNCL)’s Colgan Air unit for United Continental Holdings Inc. (UAL), which has a domestic and international hub at Newark Liberty International Airport in New Jersey. At New York’s John F. Kennedy International Airport, AMR Corp (AAMRQ).’s American Eagle flies 44- and 50-seat Embraer SA (EMBR3) jets, and 37-seat Embraers at LaGuardia.
The decline of 50-seaters may quicken with AMR in bankruptcy. Michael Boyd, president of consultant Boyd Group International Inc., predicts that Eagle will dump all its jets with 50 or fewer seats, which make up 70 percent of the regional unit’s 284-plane fleet. Eagle hasn’t detailed its plans.
Fuel, Age
“In the end, fuel consumption and aging aircraft will hurt the 50-seater market,” Tim Hoyland, a partner in the aviation practice at consultant Oliver Wyman, said by e-mail.
Delta is culling half the fleet of its Comair regional unit by year’s end, including 53 of its oldest planes such as 50-seat Bombardier CRJs. The carrier already got rid of the last of its 34-seat Saab 340 turboprops at the end of 2011.
Using bigger jets at LaGuardia will let Delta fly longer routes with more passengers, part of the airline’s strategy to grow in New York after its 2007 bankruptcy exit. For Eric Mower, chairman of advertising agency Eric Mower & Associates in Syracuse, a Delta hub at LaGuardia will mean bypassing connections he now makes in cities such as Atlanta.
“I can go to New York for meetings, and then fly Delta to other cities,” said Mower, 67, whose firm’s clients include Georgia-Pacific LLC (GP)’s Dixie products and Fisher-Price. “That’s a big improvement.”
Delta Markets
Delta’s new nonstop flights from LaGuardia include business markets such as Dallas, Cleveland and Milwaukee. The Atlanta- based carrier is spending $140 million to renovate the majority of the US Airways terminal at LaGuardia that it will control, and link the facility with the adjacent one it already operates.
Some short-haul flights will be shifted to LaGuardia from Delta’s international hub at Kennedy, making way for new connections to airports such as Austin, Texas, that will feed overseas routes, the airline’s Grimmett said.
Jeff Terhune, president of Warren & Panzer Engineers PC in Manhattan, is ready for bigger planes at LaGuardia. He commutes weekly from Syracuse and expects to switch almost exclusively to Delta after splitting flights between US Airways turboprops and larger JetBlue Airways Corp. (JBLU) jets at more-distant Kennedy.
“Flying into LaGuardia is going to save me a couple hours a week, every week, and to me that’s a big deal,” said Terhune, 45, who has been making the trip for 10 years. “With the turboprops, they’re so cramped that you’re kind of stranded there for the flight. You can’t work, you can’t really read, and don’t even bother to pull out the laptop.”
New York’s Smallest Planes Dwindle as Delta Hub Ousts Turboprops
By Mary Jane Credeur - Feb 14, 2012 12:01 AM ET
New York’s smallest passenger planes are poised to fade away as Delta Air Lines Inc. (DAL) builds a domestic hub at LaGuardia Airport served chiefly by bigger jets.
US Airways Group Inc. (LCC), the region’s largest operator of aircraft like the 37-seat Dash-8 turboprop, is paring commuter flights to upstate cities such as Albany and Syracuse while pulling back in New York. Filling the gap is Delta, which is focused on larger jets -- and no turboprops.
Once vital to carriers serving thinly populated markets, airliners that carry only a few dozen fliers now are seen by management and travelers in a harsher light: Too costly with fuel almost doubling since 2007, too small for amenities such as first-class cabins, and too loud and cramped.
“The jets are more comfortable, more reliable, cleaner, quieter,” said Doug Pinckney, 47, who is president of advertising firm Pinckney Hugo Group in Syracuse and flies to LaGuardia every two to three weeks. “It’s a better airplane. I can’t wait for the switch.”
Delta is using landing rights from a trade with US Airways to expand daily LaGuardia departures by 75 percent, to 264, by July. The world’s second-biggest airline will control half of all LaGuardia flights by then, according to data compiled by OAG, a unit of UBM Aviation in Bedfordshire, England.
More than three-quarters of the flights will be on jets with at least 70 seats. Planes in that category, such as larger models of Bombardier Inc. (BBD/B)’s CRJ series, will have a business- class cabin, a few rows of coach seats with extra legroom, and Wi-Fi, said Gail Grimmett, Delta’s vice president for New York.
‘Very Powerful’
“The ability to go to New York corporate travelers and say ‘We have all-jet service’ is very powerful,” said Henry Harteveldt, an airline analyst at Atmosphere Research Group LLC in San Francisco. “Delta’s offering will be quite compelling.”
Delta’s mainline jets on LaGuardia routes include Airbus SAS (EAD) A319s and Boeing Co. (BA) MD-80s. US Airways’s plan to shrink at LaGuardia by about two-thirds to 65 daily departures while keeping jet shuttle flights to Washington and Boston means that many of the Dash-8s in New York will go elsewhere, though a spokesman, Todd Lehmacher, declined to give a number.
US Airways subsidiaries were flying 44 Dash-8s as of December 2010, or almost half the carrier’s regional planes, according to the latest annual report. The airline received landing rights at Washington’s Reagan National from Delta in exchange for more LaGuardia access, giving Tempe, Arizona-based US Airways a chance to cut money-losing New York flights to and from small cities.
Dropping Albany
“A few turboprops” will remain at LaGuardia to serve cities such as Philadelphia, Lehmacher said. Nonstop routes to Syracuse and Albany are among those getting the ax, based on schedule data. Most of the planes being pulled from New York will go to Washington or Charlotte, North Carolina, Lehmacher said.
“The Dash-8 has been a workhorse for us,” he said. “It’s a remarkable plane and really allows us to serve a lot of markets that we couldn’t profitably serve with other aircraft.”
Pinckney, the advertising executive, is looking forward to larger planes after taking US Airways Dash-8s to LaGuardia to meet clients. The planes originally were made by de Havilland, now a part of Bombardier.
“Turboprops are very noisy,” Pinckney said. “It’s hard to work on them and if you get stuck back in the corner you feel really boxed in.”
U.S. airlines’ turboprop fleet has tumbled 67 percent to 416 planes since the start of the last decade, while 70-seat jets surged 21-fold to 433, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. The smallest regional jets, those with 50 or fewer seats, have declined 18 percent from a 2005 peak of 1,356.
‘Largely Replaced’
“Turboprops have been waning since at least 2000 and were largely replaced by the 50-seat jet,” said George Ferguson, senior aerospace analyst for Bloomberg Industries. “Then 50- seat jets grew until the increased cost of fuel stopped the growth.”
The small-airliner fleet in New York includes a half-dozen turboprops flown by Pinnacle Airlines Corp. (PNCL)’s Colgan Air unit for United Continental Holdings Inc. (UAL), which has a domestic and international hub at Newark Liberty International Airport in New Jersey. At New York’s John F. Kennedy International Airport, AMR Corp (AAMRQ).’s American Eagle flies 44- and 50-seat Embraer SA (EMBR3) jets, and 37-seat Embraers at LaGuardia.
The decline of 50-seaters may quicken with AMR in bankruptcy. Michael Boyd, president of consultant Boyd Group International Inc., predicts that Eagle will dump all its jets with 50 or fewer seats, which make up 70 percent of the regional unit’s 284-plane fleet. Eagle hasn’t detailed its plans.
Fuel, Age
“In the end, fuel consumption and aging aircraft will hurt the 50-seater market,” Tim Hoyland, a partner in the aviation practice at consultant Oliver Wyman, said by e-mail.
Delta is culling half the fleet of its Comair regional unit by year’s end, including 53 of its oldest planes such as 50-seat Bombardier CRJs. The carrier already got rid of the last of its 34-seat Saab 340 turboprops at the end of 2011.
Using bigger jets at LaGuardia will let Delta fly longer routes with more passengers, part of the airline’s strategy to grow in New York after its 2007 bankruptcy exit. For Eric Mower, chairman of advertising agency Eric Mower & Associates in Syracuse, a Delta hub at LaGuardia will mean bypassing connections he now makes in cities such as Atlanta.
“I can go to New York for meetings, and then fly Delta to other cities,” said Mower, 67, whose firm’s clients include Georgia-Pacific LLC (GP)’s Dixie products and Fisher-Price. “That’s a big improvement.”
Delta Markets
Delta’s new nonstop flights from LaGuardia include business markets such as Dallas, Cleveland and Milwaukee. The Atlanta- based carrier is spending $140 million to renovate the majority of the US Airways terminal at LaGuardia that it will control, and link the facility with the adjacent one it already operates.
Some short-haul flights will be shifted to LaGuardia from Delta’s international hub at Kennedy, making way for new connections to airports such as Austin, Texas, that will feed overseas routes, the airline’s Grimmett said.
Jeff Terhune, president of Warren & Panzer Engineers PC in Manhattan, is ready for bigger planes at LaGuardia. He commutes weekly from Syracuse and expects to switch almost exclusively to Delta after splitting flights between US Airways turboprops and larger JetBlue Airways Corp. (JBLU) jets at more-distant Kennedy.
“Flying into LaGuardia is going to save me a couple hours a week, every week, and to me that’s a big deal,” said Terhune, 45, who has been making the trip for 10 years. “With the turboprops, they’re so cramped that you’re kind of stranded there for the flight. You can’t work, you can’t really read, and don’t even bother to pull out the laptop.”
02-14-2012, 02:56 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Hear hear! Such a wasted opportunity. To watch guys like Slowplay (who I do personally believe is paid to post here as an expectation manager) list multitudes of reasons it is unlikely or improbably or impractical to get small jets flown by mainline Delta pilots it makes one recall many other like minded naysayers across the centuries.
).It requires people who actally do things.
JackBauer of 24 Hours knew that.
02-14-2012, 03:17 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Yep. Another one of my friends there went to the 380 so he could escape jr capt on the 330 after less than four years mind you. He will be a 380 Capt in two years when his lock is up.
Many of my friends over at EK and other places ran the numbers to come back to a Legacy job. Sadly, it does not compare. They all opted to stay put and are looking at 20+ years there.
I started looking at their package versus ours and a first year FO with tax incentives, housing allowance, education allowance, profit sharing, and medical is looking at a job that would have to pay north of 200K here in the states to come close.
-7900 a month income w/flight pay:tax free
-3900 housing allowance
-About a 1000 dollar a month education allowance.
-All utilities except internet paid for
-about 2000 a month in profit sharing
-42 days of vacation a year
-Annual leave PS ticket for you and your family anywhere EK flies
-15% in to a retirement fund.
That equates to 14800 a month all tax free.
Only thing taxed is income about the 86K limit(After individual EIC deductions), which FO's do not hit and Capt's pay about 1000 a month to Uncle Sam.
It is an impressive package. Of course there are not unions, and the company determines what, when and where you fly. Living in Dubai is also a must. They also wanted to point out that they flew 85 hrs a month, which I laughed at since that is the norm for a line holder here too.
There are many contracts all over the world that pay above 12K a month. A quick internet search shows you they are plentiful.
Point is, this is what our competition is paying their pilots. The total package is impressive and if DAL does not want to see a bunch of guys that are in the dead zone and junior start looking/taking these gigs, they will need to pay significantly more, have organic growth, and provide career progression that is more than just retirements.
I know a few guys that would look at this stuff if they were offered three to five year leaves. (Again, sadly since we should be the pinnacle of the career)
Many of my friends over at EK and other places ran the numbers to come back to a Legacy job. Sadly, it does not compare. They all opted to stay put and are looking at 20+ years there.
I started looking at their package versus ours and a first year FO with tax incentives, housing allowance, education allowance, profit sharing, and medical is looking at a job that would have to pay north of 200K here in the states to come close.
-7900 a month income w/flight pay:tax free
-3900 housing allowance
-About a 1000 dollar a month education allowance.
-All utilities except internet paid for
-about 2000 a month in profit sharing
-42 days of vacation a year
-Annual leave PS ticket for you and your family anywhere EK flies
-15% in to a retirement fund.
That equates to 14800 a month all tax free.
Only thing taxed is income about the 86K limit(After individual EIC deductions), which FO's do not hit and Capt's pay about 1000 a month to Uncle Sam.
It is an impressive package. Of course there are not unions, and the company determines what, when and where you fly. Living in Dubai is also a must. They also wanted to point out that they flew 85 hrs a month, which I laughed at since that is the norm for a line holder here too.
There are many contracts all over the world that pay above 12K a month. A quick internet search shows you they are plentiful.
Point is, this is what our competition is paying their pilots. The total package is impressive and if DAL does not want to see a bunch of guys that are in the dead zone and junior start looking/taking these gigs, they will need to pay significantly more, have organic growth, and provide career progression that is more than just retirements.
I know a few guys that would look at this stuff if they were offered three to five year leaves. (Again, sadly since we should be the pinnacle of the career)
psssssst.. (you have to live in the anus of the earth)
02-14-2012, 03:19 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
02-14-2012, 03:21 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I see we're talking outsourcing again so I'll add a little fuel to the fire. Overworked DC9 and MD80 guys, here's my current trip that could be yours, if only the E175 "RJ" was flown in-house.
Day 1: MSP-MDW-MSP-BZN. 15 hour overnight in Bozeman eating free hotwings and drinking $3 Moose Drool.
Day 2: BZN-SLC-SNA. Done by 9:30am, 20 hour overnight in sunny Orange County CA.
Day 3: SNA-SLC-YVR. In by 1pm, 17 hours in Vancouver BC hanging out at the Flying Beaver.
Day 4: YVR-MSP-ORD-MSP. Back in time for most commuters to catch their ride home. That 1200nm leg from YVR to MSP is sure "regional," eh?
But hey, DALPA has no interest in recapturing this flying. Really, what mainline pilot would want to lower themselves to this??
Day 1: MSP-MDW-MSP-BZN. 15 hour overnight in Bozeman eating free hotwings and drinking $3 Moose Drool.
Day 2: BZN-SLC-SNA. Done by 9:30am, 20 hour overnight in sunny Orange County CA.
Day 3: SNA-SLC-YVR. In by 1pm, 17 hours in Vancouver BC hanging out at the Flying Beaver.
Day 4: YVR-MSP-ORD-MSP. Back in time for most commuters to catch their ride home. That 1200nm leg from YVR to MSP is sure "regional," eh?
But hey, DALPA has no interest in recapturing this flying. Really, what mainline pilot would want to lower themselves to this??
02-14-2012, 03:22 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
02-14-2012, 03:29 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
02-14-2012, 03:33 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
Strange that you can take the time to research and quote so many people and write so many words, yet either completely misunderstand or intentionally misrepresent what was written to generate your response. Which is it, lack of integrity or intelligence?
Nor will it be done by keyboard warriors such as yourself (are you small, fearful, ignorant or greedy?).
It requires people who actally do things.
JackBauer of 24 Hours knew that.
Nor will it be done by keyboard warriors such as yourself (are you small, fearful, ignorant or greedy?
).It requires people who actally do things.
JackBauer of 24 Hours knew that.
PS- I know you will tell me 100 reasons why it wasn't possible but the Compass fleet should today be piloted by mainline Delta pilots. Our pinhead pilots representation flushed that one down the toilet leading to even more stagnation at this shrinking outsourced airline.
Jack Bauer would have seen this as a hostage situation and taken out the perpitrators within the first 5 minutes.
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