Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-10-2012, 05:42 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
I got a text from a buddy whose wife works at the GO. Not in flight ops but has friends there, and the one from crew resources said their phones have been ringing nonstop with pilots upset about the new system.
I myself never thought of calling because it isn't going to change anything going forward and one call will not make a change. I email. Get it in writing.
Just reportin' as it's text'd to me.
I myself never thought of calling because it isn't going to change anything going forward and one call will not make a change. I email. Get it in writing.
Just reportin' as it's text'd to me.
I am sure. It is a great deal for senior pilots the way it used to be. We got what we wanted, and not we are not happy with it. The good deal of sitting reserve on a bigger jet for the junior guys is going. It respects seniority. Not good for me personally, but good for the pilots that want reserve to respect seniority, as it should.
02-10-2012, 05:44 AM
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02-10-2012, 05:46 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2012
Posts: 129
There are about 1800 pilots here at DAL above me that have were hired after me. For those of you still reading this, I don't lie in bed at night gnashing my teeth over this, but if we set the template for a smooth and relatively non-hostile SLI by calmly accepting relative seniority as the new normal all the angst about other airlines hiring and those new pilots coming over on top of us is pretty ironic. We made our bed and we'll have to lie in it at a time not of our choosing. Yeah, yeah, I know the list is a product of arbitration, but the way we went about it set us up for the end result.
Deltaairlines(one word)
is not interested in organic growth and our association(I refuse to call it a union) is not interested in our scope concerns, both items that would mitigate the damage done by the next SLI, so we'll have to prepare ourselves to man up and welcome whoever our new brethren will be, even the ones above us with fewer years of service.
Deltaairlines(one word)
is not interested in organic growth and our association(I refuse to call it a union) is not interested in our scope concerns, both items that would mitigate the damage done by the next SLI, so we'll have to prepare ourselves to man up and welcome whoever our new brethren will be, even the ones above us with fewer years of service.
Last edited by trico; 02-10-2012 at 06:05 AM. Reason: noob
02-10-2012, 05:52 AM
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Posts: 6,991
The copilots I fly with are quite proud of it, that's the only way I found out about it!
But once word got around about this 'technique', it became more of a High Time Game. "Wow, did you hear about Joe? He scored a 120hr. line!"
BUT...since the last two bids have both had a lot of displacements out of my category, I think guys are starting to see what the net effect is when half the category is flying WAY above ALV+15 and the reserves aren't flying at all.
But once word got around about this 'technique', it became more of a High Time Game. "Wow, did you hear about Joe? He scored a 120hr. line!"
BUT...since the last two bids have both had a lot of displacements out of my category, I think guys are starting to see what the net effect is when half the category is flying WAY above ALV+15 and the reserves aren't flying at all.
I wonder what the displaced co-pilots think of trip parking now?
Classic "Tragedy of the Commons" scenario. 
For anyone not familiar (From Wiki):
The tragedy of the commons is a dilemma arising from the situation in which multiple individuals, acting independently and rationally consulting their own self-interest, will ultimately deplete a shared limited resource, even when it is clear that it is not in anyone's long-term interest for this to happen. This dilemma was described in an influential article titled "The Tragedy of the Commons", written by ecologist Garrett Hardin and first published in the journal Science in 1968.[1]
Scoop
Last edited by Scoop; 02-10-2012 at 08:53 AM.
02-10-2012, 05:56 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
tj
Agree with your thoughts. But, correct me if I'm mistaken; weren't we relative seniority, then a pull and plug method used to provide equity for future attrition?
The DAL / NWA merger "worked for us" in as much as no one burned the house down & the Company has been successful ceding our network forsr improved margins without furloughing (yet). But, I think it is a terrible model for merger integration if applied elsewhere. It did not recognize status quo, so there were winners and losers. Further, the new methodology of using future attrition as an equity throws a real wild card in the mix. (just imagine a US Air / Delta merger using that model).
The only fair merger is status quo. Pilots should be in the same seat, equipment and pay after a merger. That does harm those at airlines in decline (as ours is) and award those at dynamic, growing, competitive airlines. But, in both cases, why do pilots expect anything different than they had pre-merger?
There is certainly scenarios where a pilot could go on leave from Delta now, get hired somewhere else and end up being able to pick seniority. Might be a way to hedge your career in the scenario you describe.
There are about 1800 pilots here at DAL above me that have were hired after me. For those of you still reading this, I don't lie in bed at night gnashing my teeth over this, but if we set the template for a smooth and relatively non-hostile SLI by calmly accepting relative seniority as the new normal all the angst about other airlines hiring and those new pilots coming over on top of us is pretty ironic. We made our bed and we'll have to lie in it at a time not of our choosing. Yeah, yeah, I know the list is a product of arbitration, but the way we went about it set us up for the end result.
Deltaairlines(one word) is not interested in organic growth and our association(I refuse to call it a union) is not interested in our scope concerns, both items that would mitigate the damage done by the next SLI, so we'll have to prepare ourselves to man up and welcome whoever our new brethren will be, even the ones above us with less seniority.
Deltaairlines(one word)
is not interested in organic growth and our association(I refuse to call it a union) is not interested in our scope concerns, both items that would mitigate the damage done by the next SLI, so we'll have to prepare ourselves to man up and welcome whoever our new brethren will be, even the ones above us with less seniority.The DAL / NWA merger "worked for us" in as much as no one burned the house down & the Company has been successful ceding our network forsr improved margins without furloughing (yet). But, I think it is a terrible model for merger integration if applied elsewhere. It did not recognize status quo, so there were winners and losers. Further, the new methodology of using future attrition as an equity throws a real wild card in the mix. (just imagine a US Air / Delta merger using that model).
The only fair merger is status quo. Pilots should be in the same seat, equipment and pay after a merger. That does harm those at airlines in decline (as ours is) and award those at dynamic, growing, competitive airlines. But, in both cases, why do pilots expect anything different than they had pre-merger?
There is certainly scenarios where a pilot could go on leave from Delta now, get hired somewhere else and end up being able to pick seniority. Might be a way to hedge your career in the scenario you describe.
02-10-2012, 06:05 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
Actually, I think we ended up with a status and category list. The thing that was good for fNW guys is it only had 4 categories (wb capt, wb fo, nb capt, nb fo). That is now the template for future merger poiicy and if we merge with a carrier that flys small narrow body jets by guys chronologically younger, our junior guys will get hurt.
Sorry Bar, I know it's what you preached a long time ago. It is what it is...........
Sorry Bar, I know it's what you preached a long time ago. It is what it is...........
Last edited by Ferd149; 02-10-2012 at 07:52 AM.
02-10-2012, 06:05 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
I wonder what the displaced co-pilots think of trip parking now? Classic "Tragedy of the Commons" scenario.
For anyone not familiar:
The tragedy of the commons is a dilemma arising from the situation in which multiple individuals, acting independently and rationally consulting their own self-interest, will ultimately deplete a shared limited resource, even when it is clear that it is not in anyone's long-term interest for this to happen. This dilemma was described in an influential article titled "The Tragedy of the Commons", written by ecologist Garrett Hardin and first published in the journal Science in 1968.[1]
Scoop
Classic "Tragedy of the Commons" scenario. For anyone not familiar:
The tragedy of the commons is a dilemma arising from the situation in which multiple individuals, acting independently and rationally consulting their own self-interest, will ultimately deplete a shared limited resource, even when it is clear that it is not in anyone's long-term interest for this to happen. This dilemma was described in an influential article titled "The Tragedy of the Commons", written by ecologist Garrett Hardin and first published in the journal Science in 1968.[1]
Scoop
02-10-2012, 06:19 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: blueJet
Posts: 4,534
02-10-2012, 06:34 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Actually, I think we ended up with a status and category list. The thing that was good for fNW guys is it only had 4 categories (wb capt, wb fo, nb capt, nb fo). It that is now the template for future merger poiicy and if we merge with a carrier that flys small narrow body jets by guys chronologically younger, our junior guys will get hurt.
Sorry Bar, I know it's what you preached a long time ago. It is what it is...........
Sorry Bar, I know it's what you preached a long time ago. It is what it is...........
Reviewed the Arbitrator's findings while considering your post. He mostly got the fleet mix right, with the DC9's through 2012 and 18 757 & Airbus jets being parked. It was thought then those losses would be offset by 787 deliveries. Instead we got MD90's
That explains the triple displacement to the Mad Dog for many of us. (perhaps a bid through the A320 just to train on the thing and go for the Displacement Superfecta)
Displacement Superfecta - a type of wager in airline career betting in which the bettor, in order to win, must pick four sequential dead ends in the correct sequence. This is even more unlikely than a successful wager in the displacement trifecta, which requires correctly picking the worst three choices in order, and as such will have the correspondingly higher payoff of multiple type ratings to shop for jobs in the Middle East.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-10-2012 at 06:59 AM.
02-10-2012, 07:01 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 581
Scoop, agreed...maybe a published list is too harsh. Not quite sure if exploiting this loop-hole is "legal" per the contract or not. Allowed yes, legal, I admit I don't know--seems awfully gray.
My stance is if one couldn't walk into the ATL pilot lounge and proudly announce how they bid/got their schedule then they shouldn't be doing it.
Those that willingly exploit the trip-park loop-hole I would guess choose to remain rather discrete. I would hope that the majority of those that do trip-park do it without recognizing the harm it causes [junior] pilots.
Cubdrick
My stance is if one couldn't walk into the ATL pilot lounge and proudly announce how they bid/got their schedule then they shouldn't be doing it.
Those that willingly exploit the trip-park loop-hole I would guess choose to remain rather discrete. I would hope that the majority of those that do trip-park do it without recognizing the harm it causes [junior] pilots.
Cubdrick
Many years ago I flew a trip with a former Pan-Am pilot who had a great quote: "Never under estimate the greed of a pilot...".
Sums up the trip parking crowd pretty well.
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