Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
01-19-2012, 04:55 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,614
Thanks FTB,
I understand your concern, but here are some points to consider:
1) Under the old system, we needed 30% Reserves. Under the new system, 15%. The new system is far, far more efficient, from the company's standpoint. They absolutely hated paying four guys guys CAP-5 hours, where two flew nothing, and the other two flew max. So now they can replace the four with two at 70 hours. Beautiful.
Unless you're a pilot.
Would you like 15% more pilots?
2) Under the old system, the hierarchy doesn't start at 50%, where 50% and below has to pick up "someone else's work". 50% and below might fly more, but everyone along the list had the option to go high, or low, for any given day, any given flying. That ordered all flying, from 1%, to 100%. IOW, everyone, in seniority order, could try to hide from the crap, or go high for the juicy stuff. The bottom 50% flew more, sure, but then again, under the new system, the bottom 50% of Reserves, or the bottom 15%, are unconcerned with Reserves at Delta, because they're busy flying at ASA and Pinnacle.
You have to look at the effects of the entire system on staffing, and the way it worked before, when things were right, rather than worry about about who gets to have maggots in their rice now that we're all in a camp.
I understand your concern, but here are some points to consider:
1) Under the old system, we needed 30% Reserves. Under the new system, 15%. The new system is far, far more efficient, from the company's standpoint. They absolutely hated paying four guys guys CAP-5 hours, where two flew nothing, and the other two flew max. So now they can replace the four with two at 70 hours. Beautiful.
Unless you're a pilot.
Would you like 15% more pilots?
2) Under the old system, the hierarchy doesn't start at 50%, where 50% and below has to pick up "someone else's work". 50% and below might fly more, but everyone along the list had the option to go high, or low, for any given day, any given flying. That ordered all flying, from 1%, to 100%. IOW, everyone, in seniority order, could try to hide from the crap, or go high for the juicy stuff. The bottom 50% flew more, sure, but then again, under the new system, the bottom 50% of Reserves, or the bottom 15%, are unconcerned with Reserves at Delta, because they're busy flying at ASA and Pinnacle.
You have to look at the effects of the entire system on staffing, and the way it worked before, when things were right, rather than worry about about who gets to have maggots in their rice now that we're all in a camp.
While changes to reserve certainly have had a impact on manning the big driver in the companies ability to go to 15 percent reserves is PBS not the reserve logic.
PBS smoothed out all the ups and downs in open time and eliminated the log jam at the start of every month. It allowed the company to start the month with virtually zero uncovered trips. The 15 percent in reserve manning lost was to a certain extent covered with a increase in regular lines.
01-19-2012, 04:59 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
While changes to reserve certainly have had a impact on manning the big driver in the companies ability to go to 15 percent reserves is PBS not the reserve logic.
PBS smoothed out all the ups and downs in open time and eliminated the log jam at the start of every month. It allowed the company to start the month with virtually zero uncovered trips. The 15 percent in reserve manning lost was to a certain extent covered with a increase in regular lines.
PBS smoothed out all the ups and downs in open time and eliminated the log jam at the start of every month. It allowed the company to start the month with virtually zero uncovered trips. The 15 percent in reserve manning lost was to a certain extent covered with a increase in regular lines.
01-19-2012, 05:05 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
BTW, the old system wasn't all about who got to avoid flying, but also who got to perform flying.
With the RAW system, it's almost impossible to fly much more, so we're conditioned to ask ourselves why the other guy isn't also getting screwed. IOW, since we're all going to get very close to 70 hrs, +/- 1 or 2, we don't want to fly, and we're thinking in terms of spreading the pain.
But under the old system, a senior commuter could opt to bid high, fly his butt off, and finish early. They RAW system ensures this can't happen: you have to commute in, but you can't necessarily escape skywards, if your score is higher than another pilot's, and only one trip is up for grabs. You're a prisoner, whether you're senior or junior.
The only benefit to the current system of being senior is that it lets you bid for days off.
We can do better, and large RAW buckets are only a small step in that direction. On that note, I'm going to bow out of this one.
With the RAW system, it's almost impossible to fly much more, so we're conditioned to ask ourselves why the other guy isn't also getting screwed. IOW, since we're all going to get very close to 70 hrs, +/- 1 or 2, we don't want to fly, and we're thinking in terms of spreading the pain.
But under the old system, a senior commuter could opt to bid high, fly his butt off, and finish early. They RAW system ensures this can't happen: you have to commute in, but you can't necessarily escape skywards, if your score is higher than another pilot's, and only one trip is up for grabs. You're a prisoner, whether you're senior or junior.
The only benefit to the current system of being senior is that it lets you bid for days off.
We can do better, and large RAW buckets are only a small step in that direction. On that note, I'm going to bow out of this one.
01-19-2012, 05:11 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
I always cringe when policy changes are made and ALPA cheerleaders are shouting from the rooftops about another victory. Then a few weeks/months later people are scratching their heads saying in actual practice the policy was a fail and the company got a big win. History with this pilot leadership repeats itself again and again and again.................
01-19-2012, 05:25 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,030
I can't tell if the new reserve will be better for worse. I'll let you know in a few months. There are things on reserve that have definitely gotten better. One is being able to trade days off. The grouping requirements used to be a lot more strict.
01-19-2012, 05:35 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
BTW, the old system wasn't all about who got to avoid flying, but also who got to perform flying.
With the RAW system, it's almost impossible to fly much more, wo we're conditioned to ask ourselves why the other guy isn't getting screwed also. IOW, since we're all going to get very close to 70 hrs, +/- 1 or 2, we don't want to fly, and we're thinking in terms of spreading the pain.
But under the old system, a senior commuter could opt to bid high, fly his butt off, and finish early. They RAW system ensures this can't happen: you have to commute in, but you can't necessarily escape skywards, if your score is higher than another pilot's, and only one trip is up for grabs. You're a prisoner, whether you're senior or junior.
The only benefit to the current system of being senior is that it lets you bid for days off.
We can do better, and large RAW buckets are only a small step in that direction.
With the RAW system, it's almost impossible to fly much more, wo we're conditioned to ask ourselves why the other guy isn't getting screwed also. IOW, since we're all going to get very close to 70 hrs, +/- 1 or 2, we don't want to fly, and we're thinking in terms of spreading the pain.
But under the old system, a senior commuter could opt to bid high, fly his butt off, and finish early. They RAW system ensures this can't happen: you have to commute in, but you can't necessarily escape skywards, if your score is higher than another pilot's, and only one trip is up for grabs. You're a prisoner, whether you're senior or junior.
The only benefit to the current system of being senior is that it lets you bid for days off.
We can do better, and large RAW buckets are only a small step in that direction.
I'd take those without the bucket system.
But I'm okay with the bucket system even with it being seniority based, just not an 80 one. I'm hoping and pushing, not that it matters, so that my category doesn't go that high.
01-19-2012, 05:46 PM
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Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Starboard Side, weekends & holidays.
Posts: 856
Sink, seniority already buys pilots nearly 2/3rds of the month off. I haven't cracked 30 yet, and there have been only a few months this past year that i passed 80 and not by much. Meanwhile because of the way weekends are now staffed those guys routinely break 100-120 raw scores. Seniority is already in play and there are two buckets, weekends off and no weekends off which is rarely fly or always fly. Seniority does matter and it should.
Seniority should be in place to ensure you can work the trip you want when you have to work but not give you the month off while the guy 1 junior works the entire month in your place. Seniority with a line for the same amount of pay doesn't get you time off. It gets you the days and trips you want. On reserve it used to get you the days, and adding some weight for sc days and trip preferencing when you do have to work makes sense. I'm okay with bringing back a high yellow, add 15 points to your score, have at it.
But I am not going to champion a cause where one never has to work and others pick up his load for the same amount of money.
The way I see it this is like telling every pilot in a category that the top 5% will be paid ALV and have the month off because they're the top 5%, now carry on. Oh wait, except that the rest of you will need to pick up their work for no credit starting not with the plug but rather in reverse seniority order starting with Mr 50%.
Seniority should be in place to ensure you can work the trip you want when you have to work but not give you the month off while the guy 1 junior works the entire month in your place. Seniority with a line for the same amount of pay doesn't get you time off. It gets you the days and trips you want. On reserve it used to get you the days, and adding some weight for sc days and trip preferencing when you do have to work makes sense. I'm okay with bringing back a high yellow, add 15 points to your score, have at it.
But I am not going to champion a cause where one never has to work and others pick up his load for the same amount of money.
The way I see it this is like telling every pilot in a category that the top 5% will be paid ALV and have the month off because they're the top 5%, now carry on. Oh wait, except that the rest of you will need to pick up their work for no credit starting not with the plug but rather in reverse seniority order starting with Mr 50%.
01-19-2012, 05:48 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Sink, seniority already buys pilots nearly 2/3rds of the month off. I haven't cracked 30 yet, and there have been only a few months this past year that i passed 80 and not by much. Meanwhile because of the way weekends are now staffed those guys routinely break 100-120 raw scores. Seniority is already in play and there are two buckets, weekends off and no weekends off which is rarely fly or always fly. Seniority does matter and it should.
Seniority should be in place to ensure you can work the trip you want when you have to work but not give you the month off while the guy 1 junior works the entire month in your place. Seniority with a line for the same amount of pay doesn't get you time off. It gets you the days and trips you want. On reserve it used to get you the days, and adding some weight for sc days and trip preferencing when you do have to work makes sense. I'm okay with bringing back a high yellow, add 15 points to your score, have at it.
But I am not going to champion a cause where one never has to work and others pick up his load for the same amount of money.
The way I see it this is like telling every pilot in a category that the top 5% will be paid ALV and have the month off because they're the top 5%, now carry on. Oh wait, except that the rest of you will need to pick up their work for no credit starting not with the plug but rather in reverse seniority order starting with Mr 50%.
Seniority should be in place to ensure you can work the trip you want when you have to work but not give you the month off while the guy 1 junior works the entire month in your place. Seniority with a line for the same amount of pay doesn't get you time off. It gets you the days and trips you want. On reserve it used to get you the days, and adding some weight for sc days and trip preferencing when you do have to work makes sense. I'm okay with bringing back a high yellow, add 15 points to your score, have at it.
But I am not going to champion a cause where one never has to work and others pick up his load for the same amount of money.
The way I see it this is like telling every pilot in a category that the top 5% will be paid ALV and have the month off because they're the top 5%, now carry on. Oh wait, except that the rest of you will need to pick up their work for no credit starting not with the plug but rather in reverse seniority order starting with Mr 50%.
Also, FtB, given that the M88 block hrs are going to be going up by about 20% over the next few months, reaching a 80 on your raw will happen with two four day trips. Prior to this fall it took no time to get to 80 and I was generally timed out by the end of the second week. As more move in to 2013 and beyond, we will not see the over staffing that we do now. Just remember how much we generally were used prior to this latest pull down.
I might actually have to go bid a line somewhere because we know that the 14 hr SC limit on International Categories will be the last thing implemented as part of the FT/DT
Of course, YMMV
01-19-2012, 05:53 PM
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
1113C. PBS and the manning changes it directed took reserve staffing down to 11-15% in each seat. The FT/DT will increase reserve staffing once again because the international pilots can only sit 14 hrs and not 24. More SC all around. It will also effect WSing because of the max duty limits put forth.
01-19-2012, 06:01 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
His point is that they are training in SLC, and there are ALT restrictions to be below FL230 to the East of SLC by a good bit. When checking in they always give you a climb above FL 230, so you always need to ask if it is unrestricted. There were a few issues out there with this, and the guidance is to always ask. If you stop at FL230, they generally get upset because they are planning arrivals on you being above it, even though the plate says otherwise.
Of course it takes 270 days to get a nav plate changed.
Last edited by acl65pilot; 01-19-2012 at 06:39 PM.
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