Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
01-19-2012, 03:50 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Take your time.
I'm reading your last post, and it doesn't make much sense. If the bucket is large (i.e. 80), and Mr. 50% has flown to a RAW score of 81, he's pretty much off for two weeks, using your logic, since everyone else has to pump up their score to >80 before they're in the same bucket again.
At that point, he's up again, and why shouldn't he be first?
The bottom line: RAW scores absolutely suck, and RAW buckets are still exactly what they sound like. The bigger the better, but no self-respecting pilot wants to swim in anything by that name.
I'm reading your last post, and it doesn't make much sense. If the bucket is large (i.e. 80), and Mr. 50% has flown to a RAW score of 81, he's pretty much off for two weeks, using your logic, since everyone else has to pump up their score to >80 before they're in the same bucket again.
At that point, he's up again, and why shouldn't he be first?
The bottom line: RAW scores absolutely suck, and RAW buckets are still exactly what they sound like. The bigger the better, but no self-respecting pilot wants to swim in anything by that name.
01-19-2012, 04:00 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Take your time.
I'm reading your last post, and it doesn't make much sense. If the bucket is large (i.e. 80), and Mr. 50% has flown to a RAW score of 81, he's pretty much off for two weeks, using your logic, since everyone else has to pump up their score to >80 before they're in the same bucket again.
At that point, he's up again, and why shouldn't he be first?
The bottom line: RAW scores absolutely suck, and RAW buckets are still exactly what they sound like. The bigger the better, but no self-respecting pilot wants to swim in anything by that name.
I'm reading your last post, and it doesn't make much sense. If the bucket is large (i.e. 80), and Mr. 50% has flown to a RAW score of 81, he's pretty much off for two weeks, using your logic, since everyone else has to pump up their score to >80 before they're in the same bucket again.
At that point, he's up again, and why shouldn't he be first?
The bottom line: RAW scores absolutely suck, and RAW buckets are still exactly what they sound like. The bigger the better, but no self-respecting pilot wants to swim in anything by that name.
But in the new system you have to get above 80 to get to bucket #2. So unless you nail 2 4-days in the first two weeks you'll probably still be in bucket 1 in week 3 and number 1 to fly. Say you have a 4 day, 3 day and SC and it's only worth 78. You're still #1 in week 3 and they give you a 4 day.
So now you have a raw score of 90+ and 60 hours of flying and getting paid 70. Meanwhile guy #1 is 0 hours and maybe one or two SCs and getting paid 70.
Under the current system you'd flown 20 hours and got paid 70. So would guy #1.
Hence, do we want a system that gives the top 50% near equal QOL or take that QOL away from those sitting 20-50% to give the top 20% (or maybe top 10%) the same QOL they have now anyways?
HA! I MADE IT! (see if my above post is any better, I am getting 5% warning now)...
Last edited by forgot to bid; 01-19-2012 at 04:12 PM.
01-19-2012, 04:04 PM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 54
Thanks FTB,
I understand your concern, but here are some points to consider:
1) Under the old system, we needed 30% Reserves. Under the new system, 15%. The new system is far, far more efficient, from the company's standpoint. They absolutely hated paying four guys guys CAP-5 hours, where two flew nothing, and the other two flew max. So now they can replace the four with two at 70 hours. Beautiful.
Unless you're a pilot.
Would you like 15% more pilots?
2) Under the old system, the hierarchy doesn't start at 50%, where 50% and below has to pick up "someone else's work". 50% and below might fly more, but everyone along the list had the option to go high, or low, for any given day, any given flying. That ordered all flying, from 1%, to 100%. IOW, everyone, in seniority order, could try to hide from the crap, or go high for the juicy stuff. The bottom 50% flew more, sure, but then again, under the new system, the bottom 50% of Reserves, or the bottom 15%, are unconcerned with Reserves at Delta, because they're busy flying at ASA and Pinnacle.
You have to look at the effects of the entire system on staffing, and the way it worked before, when things were right, rather than worry about about who gets to have maggots in their rice now that we're all in a camp.
I understand your concern, but here are some points to consider:
1) Under the old system, we needed 30% Reserves. Under the new system, 15%. The new system is far, far more efficient, from the company's standpoint. They absolutely hated paying four guys guys CAP-5 hours, where two flew nothing, and the other two flew max. So now they can replace the four with two at 70 hours. Beautiful.
Unless you're a pilot.
Would you like 15% more pilots?
2) Under the old system, the hierarchy doesn't start at 50%, where 50% and below has to pick up "someone else's work". 50% and below might fly more, but everyone along the list had the option to go high, or low, for any given day, any given flying. That ordered all flying, from 1%, to 100%. IOW, everyone, in seniority order, could try to hide from the crap, or go high for the juicy stuff. The bottom 50% flew more, sure, but then again, under the new system, the bottom 50% of Reserves, or the bottom 15%, are unconcerned with Reserves at Delta, because they're busy flying at ASA and Pinnacle.
You have to look at the effects of the entire system on staffing, and the way it worked before, when things were right, rather than worry about about who gets to have maggots in their rice now that we're all in a camp.
Did I read that right. We allowed the company to reduce reserve staffing by 15%? What did we get in return. If this is true, DALPA should have used this as a bargaining credit.
01-19-2012, 04:10 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
If Mr. 50% flies the first week then yes it will take maybe 2 to 3 weeks to fly again under the current system.
But in the new system you have to get above 80 to get to bucket #2. So unless you nail 2 4-days in the first two weeks you may have a combination of a 4 day, 3 day, SC and still not make it to bucket #2. So in week 3 you are at 75 points and still #1 and could get a 4-day and end up flying 12 days or 60-65 hours. Meanwhile guy #1 is 0 hours and maybe one or two SCs.
But in the new system you have to get above 80 to get to bucket #2. So unless you nail 2 4-days in the first two weeks you may have a combination of a 4 day, 3 day, SC and still not make it to bucket #2. So in week 3 you are at 75 points and still #1 and could get a 4-day and end up flying 12 days or 60-65 hours. Meanwhile guy #1 is 0 hours and maybe one or two SCs.
And you're not junior. You're the guy sitting at 50% or maybe even 40% or higher. So you've lost the benefits of seniority outside of bidding days off. Whereas now you have both.
HA! I MADE IT! (see if my above post is any better, I am getting 5% warning now)...
01-19-2012, 04:11 PM
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Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
01-19-2012, 04:14 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
01-19-2012, 04:19 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Exactly. We used to have "really good", and senior got "great". Now we have crap for all, and we're trying to develop a system where senior at least gets gets less crap, and staffing potentially improves. But junior is concerned senior has it too good, just because it doesn't suck for them quite as bad. It's a perversion of logic.
01-19-2012, 04:28 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,324
I would agree. I was under the impression that when cleared to 350, it is an unrestricted clearance.
01-19-2012, 04:33 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Ha, I have the iPhone, til the wife confiscates it. But a day of flying is usually 10-11 points although i once got 9. So 2 3 days should be 66 points. So a 3 day and a 4 day would be like 77 if they're decent trips. So come week 3, you're still #1. You haven't crossed the 80 point threshold, so the way I read it you're still #1. So they could give you a 4 day. Now you cross 80 but you have a score of 120 and 60 hours of flying. Now youre probably done but it's the end of the month.
A raw score system gave you a day trip and moved you from guy #1 to #60. Next week after everyone flew you're #30. It's the next week til your close and could get a 3 day and be right back at #50. And may be done for the month.
But now you're number 1 for a while. And again youre not junior. You're just the lower guy with all weekends off so it's all about your seniority relative to others with all weekends off. not your seniority on the plane per se as it would be if we didn't have such a low reserves required on the weekends.
It's how we staff weekends that changed the equation and makes guy at 50% effectively the plug with all of the rights given to a plug... zero.
A raw score system gave you a day trip and moved you from guy #1 to #60. Next week after everyone flew you're #30. It's the next week til your close and could get a 3 day and be right back at #50. And may be done for the month.
But now you're number 1 for a while. And again youre not junior. You're just the lower guy with all weekends off so it's all about your seniority relative to others with all weekends off. not your seniority on the plane per se as it would be if we didn't have such a low reserves required on the weekends.
It's how we staff weekends that changed the equation and makes guy at 50% effectively the plug with all of the rights given to a plug... zero.
01-19-2012, 04:41 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
OK, since you're on an iPhone, tell me this briefly: are you against a system with no RAW score at all, where all pilots get to bid high/low, based on seniority? That'll help me understand our differences better.
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