Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
12-19-2011, 04:34 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
This is a good example of how the company puts a spin on the AE process to disguise the loss of captain seats in the system. Taking such a statement at face value ignores reality. 22 D3. projected staffing shows the trend is a loss of 76 Captain seats over the past year. So you were right partly it's not a NET ZERO. IT'S A NET LOSS OF 76 Captain seats.
From the last 3 AE's:
Projected Capt. Positions Systemwide
Aug 2011-- 4928
Jan 2012-- 4912
Nov 2012-- 4852
Maybe it's just me, but that looks like a net LOSS of Captain seats in the system.
From the last 3 AE's:
Projected Capt. Positions Systemwide
Aug 2011-- 4928
Jan 2012-- 4912
Nov 2012-- 4852
Maybe it's just me, but that looks like a net LOSS of Captain seats in the system.
Yes, we are shrinking. Welcome to a merger to to Majors. It probably would have been end to end as they touted, but the economy went in the crapper, and fuel never went down.
Until this country creates more jobs, this is what I expect we are going to see. Sucks, but that is the reality.
It will suck more, if pilots choose some flashy pay raise over strong section one changes. If we do, do that, we have no one to blame but ourselves when the JV's, CPA's and code shares keep a coming.
12-19-2011, 04:51 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
Posts: 1,898
Yes, we are shrinking. Welcome to a merger to to Majors. It probably would have been end to end as they touted, but the economy went in the crapper, and fuel never went down.
Until this country creates more jobs, this is what I expect we are going to see. Sucks, but that is the reality.
It will suck more, if pilots choose some flashy pay raise over strong section one changes. If we do, do that, we have no one to blame but ourselves when the JV's, CPA's and code shares keep a coming.
Until this country creates more jobs, this is what I expect we are going to see. Sucks, but that is the reality.
It will suck more, if pilots choose some flashy pay raise over strong section one changes. If we do, do that, we have no one to blame but ourselves when the JV's, CPA's and code shares keep a coming.
12-19-2011, 04:55 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
ACL - A Boeing jet in house colors is now your Avatar, ... excellent.
Shiznit - you're right on the money!
Shiznit - you're right on the money!
12-19-2011, 04:58 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
12-19-2011, 04:59 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Go look at our ASM's from 2008-2009 to now.
You know what really irks me? When people are surprised when something like LGA happens. It is legal by our PWA, and until guys "Get Religion" wrt to scope, they are always going to be surprised when the company does something they are totally within their contractual bounds to do. Only way to fix it is to fix the PWA, and until we stop looking at pay over scope, nothing will change. Period.
12-19-2011, 05:15 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
Posts: 1,898
As with everything, what they printed was factually correct. They were not trending the number of A seats, just one bid to the next.
Go look at our ASM's from 2008-2009 to now.
You know what really irks me? When people are surprised when something like LGA happens. It is legal by our PWA, and until guys "Get Religion" wrt to scope, they are always going to be surprised when the company does something they are totally within their contractual bounds to do. Only way to fix it is to fix the PWA, and until we stop looking at pay over scope, nothing will change. Period.
Go look at our ASM's from 2008-2009 to now.
You know what really irks me? When people are surprised when something like LGA happens. It is legal by our PWA, and until guys "Get Religion" wrt to scope, they are always going to be surprised when the company does something they are totally within their contractual bounds to do. Only way to fix it is to fix the PWA, and until we stop looking at pay over scope, nothing will change. Period.
I am still surprised at the announcement, mainly because the company seems to be making sound operational and marketing decisions lately, and this is like 2000 all over again. For the company to use the excuse that they need to develop markets--- from LGA--- that have been well served over the years by AA and USair, sounds disingenuous. I am as concerned for our business customers as I am at the lost opportunity for mainline growth.
12-19-2011, 05:16 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Meet and confer conversation:
ASA/CMR/CPZ guys: "We object to your cutting of permitted outsourced feed, our guys will get furloughed."
DAL NC guys: "Thanks for telling us. Duly noted, but we don't care, it's what our pilots want and we are the exclusive bargaining agent with Delta Air Lines, no one else can legally change that. We do have a preferential hiring agreement for ALPA carriers, so you will the ability to interview at Delta as we transfer the flying back to mainline, and you'll make more and more days off too!"
ASA/CMR/CPZ: "But we strenuously object."
DAL NC guys: "Oh. Well, if you strenuously object then we should take some time to reconsider."
DAL NC guys: "Yeah, we're going to rein in permitted types, deal with it. Thanks for coming to the meeting."
ASA/CMR/CPZ guys: "We object to your cutting of permitted outsourced feed, our guys will get furloughed."
DAL NC guys: "Thanks for telling us. Duly noted, but we don't care, it's what our pilots want and we are the exclusive bargaining agent with Delta Air Lines, no one else can legally change that. We do have a preferential hiring agreement for ALPA carriers, so you will the ability to interview at Delta as we transfer the flying back to mainline, and you'll make more and more days off too!"
ASA/CMR/CPZ: "But we strenuously object."
DAL NC guys: "Oh. Well, if you strenuously object then we should take some time to reconsider."
DAL NC guys: "Yeah, we're going to rein in permitted types, deal with it. Thanks for coming to the meeting."
As I mentioned earlier to acl, we do have one powerful tool remaining. And that is to vote NO on the TA if it doesn't reign in Scope. It will be tough because ALPA will pull out all the stops with scare tactics like you've never believed possible, but it's the one tool that scares them the most. Especially with another union waiting in the wings.
Carl
12-19-2011, 05:19 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
Posts: 1,898
Yes, indeed, and considering that a majority of the lost Capt seats come from our highest paying categories, it's not a junior pilots' dilemma.
I am still surprised at the announcement, mainly because the company seems to be making sound operational and marketing decisions lately, and this is like 2000 all over again. For the company to use the excuse that they need to develop markets--- from LGA--- that have been well served over the years by AA and USair, sounds disingenuous. I am as concerned for our business customers as I am at the lost opportunity for mainline growth.
I am still surprised at the announcement, mainly because the company seems to be making sound operational and marketing decisions lately, and this is like 2000 all over again. For the company to use the excuse that they need to develop markets--- from LGA--- that have been well served over the years by AA and USair, sounds disingenuous. I am as concerned for our business customers as I am at the lost opportunity for mainline growth.
12-19-2011, 05:26 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
He made it to National president by getting the majority votes of the regionals. Don't forget that.
We're not talking about vetoing a PWA...yet. We're talking about the ALPA president's role of inserting himself if there is NOT agreement on OUR scope opener by us AND our regional competitors. That's the way the new policy language works. And we'll never know what occured in those talks or what Moak's influence was. It's secret. We can only guess what it was when we see our TA for the first time.
I think Moak's strategy here has been quite clear as long as you understand that the prime directive is to ensure ALPA's survival. The strategy is to ensure ALPA is the single bargaining agent for all airline pilots. Eliminating competition ensures ALPA's survival. Moak is willing to take a short term reduction in total dues if it means increased membership and complete market control. Problem is, that means more scope erosion for us. That's why we will have to fight our own union every bit as hard as management for any gains in scope. Bank on it.
Carl
If he vetoed a PWA that enhanced scope, ALPA would lose 12,000 mainline dues within a month, and UAL and ALK would probably follow within weeks. It would be suicide for ALPA, it's not even close to a rational decision, and as much as you don't like LM (I'm guessing on that, but I have a hunch
), he's not a fool.
), he's not a fool.Not directed at you but I want to know: I've yet to hear from anybody how ALPA benefits from making dues off of 2,000 "fee for departure" rather than 2000 mainline pilots. The "ALPA is a dues eating, money machine" argument doesn't work in financial terms.(plus all the RJ growth has been at non-ALPA carriers anyway.)
Carl
12-19-2011, 05:26 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Interesting guess on your part, but the truth is that we'll NEVER know. The meetings will not be recorded or transcripted, and we Delta pilots will NEVER know what was said in those meetings that dealt with OUR opener regarding Scope.
Totally incorrect. The policy manual changes are the result of a lawsuit. That lawsuit claimed ALPA was hurting regional scope by protecting mainline scope. The meet/confer language is there to protect EVERYONE'S Scope...which is of course impossible...which is of course the textbook definition of a conflict of interest.
Since the Ford-Cooksey settlement, this is going to be the first instance that I'm aware of. But since the meetings and Moak's actions will NOT be recoreded in any way, we'll never know what went on and to what extent the ALPA president and our regional competitors influenced our Scope opener.
As I mentioned earlier to acl, we do have one powerful tool remaining. And that is to vote NO on the TA if it doesn't reign in Scope. It will be tough because ALPA will pull out all the stops with scare tactics like you've never believed possible, but it's the one tool that scares them the most. Especially with another union waiting in the wings.
Carl
Totally incorrect. The policy manual changes are the result of a lawsuit. That lawsuit claimed ALPA was hurting regional scope by protecting mainline scope. The meet/confer language is there to protect EVERYONE'S Scope...which is of course impossible...which is of course the textbook definition of a conflict of interest.
Since the Ford-Cooksey settlement, this is going to be the first instance that I'm aware of. But since the meetings and Moak's actions will NOT be recoreded in any way, we'll never know what went on and to what extent the ALPA president and our regional competitors influenced our Scope opener.
As I mentioned earlier to acl, we do have one powerful tool remaining. And that is to vote NO on the TA if it doesn't reign in Scope. It will be tough because ALPA will pull out all the stops with scare tactics like you've never believed possible, but it's the one tool that scares them the most. Especially with another union waiting in the wings.
Carl
Carl, I agree that we can vote No, and I am willing and ready to if scope is not fixed in a way that makes us part of the decision process on every deal.
We need that board seat, and we got it, and we need to make the company get our approval for every deal that puts any flying off of our list. We just need to demand it.
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