Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
12-04-2011, 04:43 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
I know and I was almost certain they would. Their filing date was a month earlier than I thought as well. I was also surprised to see them not file for DIP. Shows you how much of a takeover/fragmentation target they are. Even they know it.
I agree the ride is not going to be fun, and I am sure that we will see at a minimum a merger, if not a fragmentation of them or LCC if AMR goes and ties the knot with B6. Worst case the White House cannot stomach the job loss of a fragmentation and goes for Foreign Ownership and sells it as a bipartisan deal in an election year. Bumps for sure. Educate yourself (not you but every pilot) on what each of these possibilities will mean for you and your family and for this group and for our company.
I agree the ride is not going to be fun, and I am sure that we will see at a minimum a merger, if not a fragmentation of them or LCC if AMR goes and ties the knot with B6. Worst case the White House cannot stomach the job loss of a fragmentation and goes for Foreign Ownership and sells it as a bipartisan deal in an election year. Bumps for sure. Educate yourself (not you but every pilot) on what each of these possibilities will mean for you and your family and for this group and for our company.
Carl
12-04-2011, 05:05 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,324
12-04-2011, 05:16 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,324
Timbo, if I may correct you. Delta didn't pay United Health Care 15 million for Anderson. It put 15 million in contract incentives if Delta met certain financial goals. Even with that he left a lot, and I mean a lot, of cash on the table by coming to Delta.
Executive Suite: Delta chief takes unlikely flight path - USATODAY.com
"Anderson decided to return to the airline industry, despite a pay cut to about $1.5 million annually in salary and bonus. Anderson potentially could earn as much as $15 million in three years from Delta if a special incentive package created to partially offset the pay cut he took pays out fully. He could have earned several times that had he stayed at UnitedHealth.
Anderson says the attraction of returning to the industry is the "intellectual challenge of trying to make an important, long-lasting change in how … airlines are managed." Specifically, he says, Delta is positioned to show that airlines need not be vulnerable to the cyclical swings that have marked the industry's history."
Executive Suite: Delta chief takes unlikely flight path - USATODAY.com
"Anderson decided to return to the airline industry, despite a pay cut to about $1.5 million annually in salary and bonus. Anderson potentially could earn as much as $15 million in three years from Delta if a special incentive package created to partially offset the pay cut he took pays out fully. He could have earned several times that had he stayed at UnitedHealth.
Anderson says the attraction of returning to the industry is the "intellectual challenge of trying to make an important, long-lasting change in how … airlines are managed." Specifically, he says, Delta is positioned to show that airlines need not be vulnerable to the cyclical swings that have marked the industry's history."
If he got paid 50K a year, I'd buy that BS. If he stays 30 years and gives back all his stock options if we go into BK, I'd buy in again. But he didn't and he won't.
He is well compensated and taking a 1.5 mil cut to switch to DAL don't mean $hit. Lets not be foolish and think he's in it for anything but the cash.
And just to be clear, he does not care about the employees and he does not care about you.
12-04-2011, 05:21 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
For those wanting to vilify Richard Anderson I would like to take you to task on that. Look at the facts:
1) He fought against Mike Levine and John Dasburg and argued against them taking Northwest to a strike in '98. After the strike Levine wanted to park the 74s and fill the pacific with used DC-10s. It was Anderson that argued and won (being appointed to CEO over him) to update the NWA fleet. 319/320s in place of 727s and 330s to replace the DC-10s.
2) He offered the NWA pilots a 10 percent raise after 9/11 without a fight, which is why I personally believe that we will see a SWA like contract mid next year.
3) When Anderson left NWA in October of '04 he left millions of dollars of NWA stock on the table. He knew what was coming down the pipe and wanted no part of it.
4) What Anderson made at United Health Care was multiple times more than what he is getting at Delta. He took a massive pay cut to come back to the airlines. Anybody that has ever heard him speak knows that he loves airplanes and does love this industry. He truly has a vision of building a world class airline. That is his motivation not money. Yes, he is cutting back and Delta is saving money/paying down debt, because, once again he is trying to build a financially stable airline.
5) Look at the rest of the industry. Tell me that every other wouldn't love to have Anderson as a CEO. DAL has posted a 3B profit in the last 18 months where AA has lost 1B. That is a 4B differential in a very short time. That's staggering!
Look at the rest of the industry:
-USAir-civil war between the east and west.
-United/Continental 10 year differential in relative seniority. Wait till that battle begins.
-AA-Sad. Truly poor and sorry management!
-Southwest- Let's see how this stapling of AirTran works.
Carl, before you refute my points, I'll admit I can't beat you in a debate however I am pro DPA but not because I see a ghost behind every management team decision but because I see Alpa as conflicted.
I'll take our management team over any in the industry.
1) He fought against Mike Levine and John Dasburg and argued against them taking Northwest to a strike in '98. After the strike Levine wanted to park the 74s and fill the pacific with used DC-10s. It was Anderson that argued and won (being appointed to CEO over him) to update the NWA fleet. 319/320s in place of 727s and 330s to replace the DC-10s.
2) He offered the NWA pilots a 10 percent raise after 9/11 without a fight, which is why I personally believe that we will see a SWA like contract mid next year.
3) When Anderson left NWA in October of '04 he left millions of dollars of NWA stock on the table. He knew what was coming down the pipe and wanted no part of it.
4) What Anderson made at United Health Care was multiple times more than what he is getting at Delta. He took a massive pay cut to come back to the airlines. Anybody that has ever heard him speak knows that he loves airplanes and does love this industry. He truly has a vision of building a world class airline. That is his motivation not money. Yes, he is cutting back and Delta is saving money/paying down debt, because, once again he is trying to build a financially stable airline.
5) Look at the rest of the industry. Tell me that every other wouldn't love to have Anderson as a CEO. DAL has posted a 3B profit in the last 18 months where AA has lost 1B. That is a 4B differential in a very short time. That's staggering!
Look at the rest of the industry:
-USAir-civil war between the east and west.
-United/Continental 10 year differential in relative seniority. Wait till that battle begins.
-AA-Sad. Truly poor and sorry management!
-Southwest- Let's see how this stapling of AirTran works.
Carl, before you refute my points, I'll admit I can't beat you in a debate however I am pro DPA but not because I see a ghost behind every management team decision but because I see Alpa as conflicted.
I'll take our management team over any in the industry.
Its great he's paying down debt, it relly is. Its great he's getting a move on with some narrowbody replacement jets in a way that doesn't hurt our financials short or long term. I'm sure he believes the fuel guy we just hired is the best man for the job and I hope he is as well.
But why sign on the Republic Air Group , that flies A320's and has C series and ore E190's on firm order by the way, for yet another batch of large RJ outsourcing, complete with profits going to directly fund a fare trashing competitor?
Why would RA, if he was so sincere, even want a 3 year look back foreign JV with zero floor for 2 years followed by a one year at still under 50%?
Why sell CPZ to TSA, then hire TSA anyway, when TSA is one of the most cut throat, labor busting bottom feeders in airline history...with 100 seat jet orders on the way and a CEO that really believes that by the time he takes delivery there will be scope relief?
DCI bumping up against the 250+ DC-9-10 replacement jet outsource limit (if those planes were flown by DL pilots they would collectively comprise our single biggest fleet type by seat range), foreign code shares bumping up to the absolute limits, and Alaska dominating an entire coast and going east because we supposedly can't do one flight a day LA-SEA or SEA-BOS? Please.
And even if we are offered SWA pay, and for the sake of arguement (and this is a big gimme for any CEO) offered SWA W-2's for small narrowbodys and up from there, by management, in a fairly quick timeline, what then will be the accompanying scope proposal? Far better (an absolute requirement or SWA pay means nothing), about the same (still worth striking over) or even worse in an attempt to get us to sell out our futures for a hamburger today?
By their deeds you shall judge them. Trust but verify. His letters about sitting at C. E. Woolman's desk are heart warming, and there is no doubt he is smart and talented. But what will his next move be?
I hope you are right in your estimation of him. I also want to trust him, but I'm waiting on the verify part that just isn't panning out quite yet.
12-04-2011, 05:29 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
And just to be clear, he thinks you're overpaid, just about as much as you think he's overpaid...
Goose...meet gander.
Gander...meet goose.
12-04-2011, 05:32 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
If RA is to belived in or trusted, he needs to be the leader that makes D.A.L. choose its pilots first to do its flying. I'm not against networks either. But in the aggregate, from small former mainline replacement jets to current narrowbody code share to international JV's, the company outsources as much as then can by law and doesn't give us a block hour more.
Thats why zero, zero, 49.75% is insane. Never should have been agreed to, especially for some supposed 2% gain in good times. By the way, the floorless 2 year period is a great time to go into a potential strike if the company can time it right. Give us 49.75% briefly then enjoy a 2 year outsource fest. All in "perfect compliance" with no ability for us to cry struck work if they manage the timing right.
12-04-2011, 05:36 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Geez man. Certainly you must know by now that I won't fall for you changing the subject and answering questions with more questions. This has nothing to do with the subject you keep ducking. The subject is: Your assertion that American is where they are because of their lack of JV's and code share. That was BS and you know it. If it were true, Southwest would be bankrupt. Show me any published report that states American's trouble are because of a lack of JV's and code share.
For the rest of the audience, alfaromeo will do no such thing. Like he's done so many times before when he's caught spinning and lying, he'll disappear deep into the witness protection program, then come out later when he thinks people have forgotten the last time he got caught.
I know it must sound like vitriol to you. You're not used to being called out trying to con people. But I've got your number, and many others do too. You're an MEC bureaucrat that is part of our problem, not part of our solution. In your world, you just need that full time FPL to continue so you can continue to NOT live under the contract like the rest of us. Why you do what you do is unknown. But to come here and spin the way you do is shameful. No amount of FPL would be worth it to me.
My assertions are easy to find. Try Yahoo finance or any other data provider. But now for YOUR bold assertion (read lies): American is in the trouble its in now because of a lack of JV's and code share? Still waiting for you to EVER back that one up.
Carl
For the rest of the audience, alfaromeo will do no such thing. Like he's done so many times before when he's caught spinning and lying, he'll disappear deep into the witness protection program, then come out later when he thinks people have forgotten the last time he got caught.
I know it must sound like vitriol to you. You're not used to being called out trying to con people. But I've got your number, and many others do too. You're an MEC bureaucrat that is part of our problem, not part of our solution. In your world, you just need that full time FPL to continue so you can continue to NOT live under the contract like the rest of us. Why you do what you do is unknown. But to come here and spin the way you do is shameful. No amount of FPL would be worth it to me.
My assertions are easy to find. Try Yahoo finance or any other data provider. But now for YOUR bold assertion (read lies): American is in the trouble its in now because of a lack of JV's and code share? Still waiting for you to EVER back that one up.
Carl
The first rule of holes is when you are in one, stop digging. You stated unequivocally that DEBT was the problem for American and you stated unequivocally that their bankruptcy was about debt and you stated unequivocally that AMR's debt load was double Delta's. I merely asked for you to provide some proof of these statements. As usual, you just launch personal attacks, bluster about some more, and then launch some more personal attacks.
Let's address the first question, this is what an airline analyst had to say:
- "In 2011 AMR should lose $1.140 billion while Delta should earn $775 million, a pretax difference of $1.9 billion. As the table clearly shows, were AMR to magically have total seat mile costs equal to Delta, it would only close one-third of the profitability gap versus Delta. We have chosen Delta as the comparison standard since LCC is a much shorter hop carrier and the UAL data may be distorted by the ongoing consolidation of data for Continental and United."
- "The bigger issue for American is, by far, its inability to generate unit revenues, or revenues per available seat mile, equal to its competitors. The table below compares AMR unit revenue performance to Delta. Were AMR to generate passenger revenues per seat mile at the level of Delta, the gap between these two carriers would shrink by $910 million or 50 percent more than the gap on the cost side of the equation."
- "Interestingly, the table [click here] shows that, in the early part of the last decade, AMR's RASM [revenue per available seat mile] was at a level above the industry. Over time, however, the industry performance's has surpassed that of AMR. From a revenue perspective, the industry is now more productive than is American."
So in the last few years AMR revenue has dropped below industry performance. Why is that? Almost every analyst will tell you that their total network is much too small. Their own network is too small and their code shares and alliances are too small. They are losing business traffic to Delta and United, mostly Delta. That is why we are outperforming the industry in RASM momentum and AMR is underperforming. That is why AMR has to do something to make their extended network bigger or they need to fragment. They can't operate in no man's land like they are now. They used to be the big dog and now they are the little dog. That dog ain't hunting.
Now you bring out the big guns, Southwest. You say without code shares Southwest should be bankrupt. I have news for you Carl. Southwest's PRASM is light years behind us. They are light years behind us because their extended network and operating model do not attract business travelers. You do know that one round trip ticket in business class on your whale will just about buy out the entire cabin of a Southwest 737, right. They make money because they operate with a lower cost model. They serve about 80 cities total, they use one fleet type, they run an extremely lean staffing model (yes their pilots fly more hours than we do, it's a fact) and they don't care if it takes someone 9 hours to go from Baltimore to Kansas City.
In fact, Southwest has recognized that their cost model is slowly rising and they are now adapting their network to try increase their PRASM performance. They are talking about adding international, adding Hawaii, they are buying bigger aircraft, and they are trying to entice more high fare passengers to book with them. So Southwest management would be the first to tell you that it is absolutely true that their PRASM performance is so far below ours because our extended network, including code shares and alliances, dwarfs theirs. They survive because they have much lower costs also. Get it.
So Carl, please prove to me that AMR's bankruptcy is all about debt. For you to claim that, you should at least have some numbers, they are all available on Edgar. Or are you going to admit that you just made up your analysis and you made up your numbers.
No, I think you will make more personal attacks and then claim I am on FPL (I'm on vacation) and then make more personal attacks.
12-04-2011, 05:41 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
How is this relevant? Your (and many of ALPA's waterboys) are constantly tossing out red herrings in an attempt to avoid answering the question at hand.
Just out of curiosity, do you (or anyone else) get FLP for posting here? YES or NO.
And when will the membership be able to transparently view WHO is getting FPL for WHAT?
And why is this so difficult to deliver?
Just out of curiosity, do you (or anyone else) get FLP for posting here? YES or NO.
And when will the membership be able to transparently view WHO is getting FPL for WHAT?
And why is this so difficult to deliver?
Why do you then try to make some personal attack? Waterboy, really. Is that the best intellectual argument you can make? Don't you have any other ideas other than attack? The answer is no one gets FPL to post on this forum.
Seriously, we aren't in high school anymore, why don't you grow up?
12-04-2011, 05:52 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 351
Carl,
The first rule of holes is when you are in one, stop digging. You stated unequivocally that DEBT was the problem for American and you stated unequivocally that their bankruptcy was about debt and you stated unequivocally that AMR's debt load was double Delta's. I merely asked for you to provide some proof of these statements. As usual, you just launch personal attacks, bluster about some more, and then launch some more personal attacks.
Let's address the first question, this is what an airline analyst had to say:
I can't get the tables to post but they just show in a table format the numbers listed above. Everyone in the industry knows that American has a revenue problem. They will only be able to shed a small portion of their debt in Chapter 11, because most of their debt is secured and most of their secured debt is backed by aircraft. You do understand Carl that if AMR rejects EETC's they lose the aircraft right? They don't get to wipe out the debt and keep the jets.
So in the last few years AMR revenue has dropped below industry performance. Why is that? Almost every analyst will tell you that their total network is much too small. Their own network is too small and their code shares and alliances are too small. They are losing business traffic to Delta and United, mostly Delta. That is why we are outperforming the industry in RASM momentum and AMR is underperforming. That is why AMR has to do something to make their extended network bigger or they need to fragment. They can't operate in no man's land like they are now. They used to be the big dog and now they are the little dog. That dog ain't hunting.
Now you bring out the big guns, Southwest. You say without code shares Southwest should be bankrupt. I have news for you Carl. Southwest's PRASM is light years behind us. They are light years behind us because their extended network and operating model do not attract business travelers. You do know that one round trip ticket in business class on your whale will just about buy out the entire cabin of a Southwest 737, right. They make money because they operate with a lower cost model. They serve about 80 cities total, they use one fleet type, they run an extremely lean staffing model (yes their pilots fly more hours than we do, it's a fact) and they don't care if it takes someone 9 hours to go from Baltimore to Kansas City.
In fact, Southwest has recognized that their cost model is slowly rising and they are now adapting their network to try increase their PRASM performance. They are talking about adding international, adding Hawaii, they are buying bigger aircraft, and they are trying to entice more high fare passengers to book with them. So Southwest management would be the first to tell you that it is absolutely true that their PRASM performance is so far below ours because our extended network, including code shares and alliances, dwarfs theirs. They survive because they have much lower costs also. Get it.
So Carl, please prove to me that AMR's bankruptcy is all about debt. For you to claim that, you should at least have some numbers, they are all available on Edgar. Or are you going to admit that you just made up your analysis and you made up your numbers.
No, I think you will make more personal attacks and then claim I am on FPL (I'm on vacation) and then make more personal attacks.
The first rule of holes is when you are in one, stop digging. You stated unequivocally that DEBT was the problem for American and you stated unequivocally that their bankruptcy was about debt and you stated unequivocally that AMR's debt load was double Delta's. I merely asked for you to provide some proof of these statements. As usual, you just launch personal attacks, bluster about some more, and then launch some more personal attacks.
Let's address the first question, this is what an airline analyst had to say:
- "In 2011 AMR should lose $1.140 billion while Delta should earn $775 million, a pretax difference of $1.9 billion. As the table clearly shows, were AMR to magically have total seat mile costs equal to Delta, it would only close one-third of the profitability gap versus Delta. We have chosen Delta as the comparison standard since LCC is a much shorter hop carrier and the UAL data may be distorted by the ongoing consolidation of data for Continental and United."
- "The bigger issue for American is, by far, its inability to generate unit revenues, or revenues per available seat mile, equal to its competitors. The table below compares AMR unit revenue performance to Delta. Were AMR to generate passenger revenues per seat mile at the level of Delta, the gap between these two carriers would shrink by $910 million or 50 percent more than the gap on the cost side of the equation."
- "Interestingly, the table [click here] shows that, in the early part of the last decade, AMR's RASM [revenue per available seat mile] was at a level above the industry. Over time, however, the industry performance's has surpassed that of AMR. From a revenue perspective, the industry is now more productive than is American."
So in the last few years AMR revenue has dropped below industry performance. Why is that? Almost every analyst will tell you that their total network is much too small. Their own network is too small and their code shares and alliances are too small. They are losing business traffic to Delta and United, mostly Delta. That is why we are outperforming the industry in RASM momentum and AMR is underperforming. That is why AMR has to do something to make their extended network bigger or they need to fragment. They can't operate in no man's land like they are now. They used to be the big dog and now they are the little dog. That dog ain't hunting.
Now you bring out the big guns, Southwest. You say without code shares Southwest should be bankrupt. I have news for you Carl. Southwest's PRASM is light years behind us. They are light years behind us because their extended network and operating model do not attract business travelers. You do know that one round trip ticket in business class on your whale will just about buy out the entire cabin of a Southwest 737, right. They make money because they operate with a lower cost model. They serve about 80 cities total, they use one fleet type, they run an extremely lean staffing model (yes their pilots fly more hours than we do, it's a fact) and they don't care if it takes someone 9 hours to go from Baltimore to Kansas City.
In fact, Southwest has recognized that their cost model is slowly rising and they are now adapting their network to try increase their PRASM performance. They are talking about adding international, adding Hawaii, they are buying bigger aircraft, and they are trying to entice more high fare passengers to book with them. So Southwest management would be the first to tell you that it is absolutely true that their PRASM performance is so far below ours because our extended network, including code shares and alliances, dwarfs theirs. They survive because they have much lower costs also. Get it.
So Carl, please prove to me that AMR's bankruptcy is all about debt. For you to claim that, you should at least have some numbers, they are all available on Edgar. Or are you going to admit that you just made up your analysis and you made up your numbers.
No, I think you will make more personal attacks and then claim I am on FPL (I'm on vacation) and then make more personal attacks.
I love a good Carl/Alfa spat!!
It makes me feel like charley sheen in platoon! A child of 2 fathers Sgt. Barnes & Sgt. Elies. Not sure who is Barnes and who is Elies though?
12-04-2011, 06:02 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
I Tebow that this turned out well.
obviously it did, I just wanted to say "I Tebow..."
obviously it did, I just wanted to say "I Tebow..."
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