Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
12-04-2011, 03:59 AM
The Brown Dot +1
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12-04-2011, 04:26 AM
Feeling blessed.
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: Was I finally in the right place at the right time?
Posts: 540
never mind
Last edited by HalinTexas; 12-04-2011 at 04:40 AM.
12-04-2011, 06:13 AM
Gets Weekends Off
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12-04-2011, 06:41 AM
Back on TDY
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Posts: 12,487
IMHO management is indicating a reluctance to comply with the spirit of our agreement and D-ALPA's track record is clear ... the conversation about scope grievances always ends with "what can we get for that?"
Further, the JV language leaves negotiations open, such that further renegotiation can take place via a MOU, not subject to membership ratification, or even the vote of our Reps. In effect, the NCC, MEC Chair, or GCC can change the most critical part of our contract unilaterally.
Further, the JV language leaves negotiations open, such that further renegotiation can take place via a MOU, not subject to membership ratification, or even the vote of our Reps. In effect, the NCC, MEC Chair, or GCC can change the most critical part of our contract unilaterally.
Carl
12-04-2011, 06:51 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
No it doesn't make more sense because you misrepresented what is really happening.
Starting point before Alitalia (LOA16 PWA required percentages):
Delta 51.7%
AFKLM 48.3%
LOA16 adjusted for the Alitalia capacity added to AFKLM (Desi's (RD) numbers)
Delta 47.2%
AFKLM/AZ 52.8%
Delta share is down 4.5% so Alitalia share is 4.5% added to AFKLM
MOU14 signed by TO and SD in June 2010:
Delta 50%
AFKLM/AZ 50%
The gain: 2.8% for Delta, due in 2014
The cost: extend compliance period from March 31, 2011 to March 31, 2014
Translation: no PWA enforcement ability from June 2010 (MOU 14 signed) to March 31, 2014 (end of current rolling three-year compliance period)
What have we "gained" since Alitalia was added:
SEP Delta EASK 45.9% (-1.3% vs pre Alitalia levels, -4.1% down vs 50%)
OCT Delta EASK 46.0% (-1.2% vs pre Alitalia levels, -4% down vs 50%)
NOV Delta EASK 46.0% (-1.2% vs pre Alitalia levels, -4% down vs 50%)
DEC Delta EASK 46.6% (-0.6% vs pre Alitalia levels, -3.4% down vs 50%)
JAN Delta EASK 46.8% (-0.4% vs pre Alitalia levels, -3.2% down vs 50%)
FEB Delta EASK 46.9% (-0.3% vs pre Alitalia levels, -3.1% down vs 50%)
MAR Delta EASK 45.8% (-1.4% vs pre Alitalia levels, -4.2% down vs 50%)
Delta doesn't have any PWA enforcable flying obligation towards Delta pilots until 2014.
Desi's (RD) own numbers put the potential 2.8% gain by 2014 at 6-7 city-pairs.
We are currently flying well below that gain (really a loss right now).
-9 city-pairs for Delta
-3 city-pairs for AFKLM/AZ
That's where we are at.
We are below our share of the production balance even when adjusted for the addition of Alitalia. We are further away from a 50% share than we were a year ago...And we can't do anything about it until after March 31, 2014.
Those are actual numbers, real data from our DALPA compliance guys sourced though DALPA channels not some made up examples to make you feel good.
This is our reality guys, face it!
Cheers
George
Starting point before Alitalia (LOA16 PWA required percentages):
Delta 51.7%
AFKLM 48.3%
LOA16 adjusted for the Alitalia capacity added to AFKLM (Desi's (RD) numbers)
Delta 47.2%
AFKLM/AZ 52.8%
Delta share is down 4.5% so Alitalia share is 4.5% added to AFKLM
MOU14 signed by TO and SD in June 2010:
Delta 50%
AFKLM/AZ 50%
The gain: 2.8% for Delta, due in 2014
The cost: extend compliance period from March 31, 2011 to March 31, 2014
Translation: no PWA enforcement ability from June 2010 (MOU 14 signed) to March 31, 2014 (end of current rolling three-year compliance period)
What have we "gained" since Alitalia was added:
SEP Delta EASK 45.9% (-1.3% vs pre Alitalia levels, -4.1% down vs 50%)
OCT Delta EASK 46.0% (-1.2% vs pre Alitalia levels, -4% down vs 50%)
NOV Delta EASK 46.0% (-1.2% vs pre Alitalia levels, -4% down vs 50%)
DEC Delta EASK 46.6% (-0.6% vs pre Alitalia levels, -3.4% down vs 50%)
JAN Delta EASK 46.8% (-0.4% vs pre Alitalia levels, -3.2% down vs 50%)
FEB Delta EASK 46.9% (-0.3% vs pre Alitalia levels, -3.1% down vs 50%)
MAR Delta EASK 45.8% (-1.4% vs pre Alitalia levels, -4.2% down vs 50%)
- We are not gaining anything.
- We have actually lost flying over when Alitalia was added.
- We are forcast to remain below 47.2% which is where our share of flying was after AFKLM added Alitalia.
Delta doesn't have any PWA enforcable flying obligation towards Delta pilots until 2014.
- Our flying is less than it was when Alitalia was added
- It is projected to be less than our share when Alitalia was added
- We have no ability to seek changes until 2014
- If Delta chooses to fly 49.75% for 12 months ending on March 31, 2014 all accrued flying deficit will be disregarded and Delta deemed in compliance.
Desi's (RD) own numbers put the potential 2.8% gain by 2014 at 6-7 city-pairs.
We are currently flying well below that gain (really a loss right now).
-9 city-pairs for Delta
-3 city-pairs for AFKLM/AZ
That's where we are at.
We are below our share of the production balance even when adjusted for the addition of Alitalia. We are further away from a 50% share than we were a year ago...And we can't do anything about it until after March 31, 2014.
Those are actual numbers, real data from our DALPA compliance guys sourced though DALPA channels not some made up examples to make you feel good.
This is our reality guys, face it!
Cheers
George
I am not sure if you have noticed, but Europe is in a massive debt meltdown and traffic has cratered. Delta has been aggressive about cutting capacity and has turned losses into profits. AF has not cut capacity as quickly and they are losing money. The agreement was designed to sort itself out over time, not six months. Delta and AF are still like two sumo wrestlers waddling around the ring sizing each other up as the work out how to control capacity to make profits, both in expansion and contraction modes. They will either make it work or they will end the alliance.
I encourage you to take the longer view and see how this sorts out. We have one carrier that has been a laggard in developing a larger network through alliances and code shares. They are getting attacked by their larger competitors and now they have a large revenue problem, one that will not go away shortly. That carrier is American Airlines. Please tell me how this "go it alone" strategy has produced anything good for their pilots. They have been shrinking their pilot group constantly over the last years and they recently lost some grievance over minimum pilot count. They are in bankruptcy and will most likely not survive in anything close to their current form. First they will shrink and then they will have to merge with one or more carriers. They will also have to broaden their network through code shares and alliances.
Right now American is like a wide receiver that is trying to block two defensive lineman at once (Delta and United). They are getting their a..es kicked up and down the field. This will not stop until they get bigger. Sorry but that is the landscape we operate in. It is seductive to hope that if we just end alliances we will just take over all the flying done by our alliance partners. Instead, we will lose high revenue traffic due to a smaller network and we will have to contract flying to reach profitability. This is not conjecture, just look at American because that is exactly what happened to them and is continuing to happen.
12-04-2011, 07:05 AM
No longer cares
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12-04-2011, 07:26 AM
Happy to be here
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Posts: 18,563
12-04-2011, 07:40 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
If you look at the world through a soda straw, we have lost 1% of Atlantic capacity vs. AF/KLM/AZ over a few months. I thought I was quite clear that this was going to happen over an extended time period and that your short term snapshot was not the end state. The JV flying accounts for a little over 20% of Delta's capacity.
I am not sure if you have noticed, but Europe is in a massive debt meltdown and traffic has cratered. Delta has been aggressive about cutting capacity and has turned losses into profits. AF has not cut capacity as quickly and they are losing money. The agreement was designed to sort itself out over time, not six months. Delta and AF are still like two sumo wrestlers waddling around the ring sizing each other up as the work out how to control capacity to make profits, both in expansion and contraction modes. They will either make it work or they will end the alliance.
I encourage you to take the longer view and see how this sorts out. We have one carrier that has been a laggard in developing a larger network through alliances and code shares. They are getting attacked by their larger competitors and now they have a large revenue problem, one that will not go away shortly. That carrier is American Airlines. Please tell me how this "go it alone" strategy has produced anything good for their pilots. They have been shrinking their pilot group constantly over the last years and they recently lost some grievance over minimum pilot count. They are in bankruptcy and will most likely not survive in anything close to their current form. First they will shrink and then they will have to merge with one or more carriers. They will also have to broaden their network through code shares and alliances.
Right now American is like a wide receiver that is trying to block two defensive lineman at once (Delta and United). They are getting their a..es kicked up and down the field. This will not stop until they get bigger. Sorry but that is the landscape we operate in. It is seductive to hope that if we just end alliances we will just take over all the flying done by our alliance partners. Instead, we will lose high revenue traffic due to a smaller network and we will have to contract flying to reach profitability. This is not conjecture, just look at American because that is exactly what happened to them and is continuing to happen.
I am not sure if you have noticed, but Europe is in a massive debt meltdown and traffic has cratered. Delta has been aggressive about cutting capacity and has turned losses into profits. AF has not cut capacity as quickly and they are losing money. The agreement was designed to sort itself out over time, not six months. Delta and AF are still like two sumo wrestlers waddling around the ring sizing each other up as the work out how to control capacity to make profits, both in expansion and contraction modes. They will either make it work or they will end the alliance.
I encourage you to take the longer view and see how this sorts out. We have one carrier that has been a laggard in developing a larger network through alliances and code shares. They are getting attacked by their larger competitors and now they have a large revenue problem, one that will not go away shortly. That carrier is American Airlines. Please tell me how this "go it alone" strategy has produced anything good for their pilots. They have been shrinking their pilot group constantly over the last years and they recently lost some grievance over minimum pilot count. They are in bankruptcy and will most likely not survive in anything close to their current form. First they will shrink and then they will have to merge with one or more carriers. They will also have to broaden their network through code shares and alliances.
Right now American is like a wide receiver that is trying to block two defensive lineman at once (Delta and United). They are getting their a..es kicked up and down the field. This will not stop until they get bigger. Sorry but that is the landscape we operate in. It is seductive to hope that if we just end alliances we will just take over all the flying done by our alliance partners. Instead, we will lose high revenue traffic due to a smaller network and we will have to contract flying to reach profitability. This is not conjecture, just look at American because that is exactly what happened to them and is continuing to happen.
Alfa;
Thanks for posting, we non-ALPA cheerleaders do appreciate it, but I gotta chime in.
I'll start with the bolded parts.
1. Soda straw: I am a Delta pilot, married to this company, a soda straw is all I can look thru. If my union thinks that Delta pilots need to be more magnanamous with distribution of flying, time it takes to "get well" and merger synergy payback, where do I sign up to decertify them.
2. Europe is in a massive debt meltdown: This european debt problem and the most recent loosening of money by the fed to help them is beyond the control of the Delta pilots. I can tell you what it does to us though. It makes our paycheck buy less. By devalueing the dollar and propping up the euro my retirement position weakens, my buying power shrinks, and this goes on for some amount of time in the future. Now, I have to be told by my union that this is good medicine for me because sometime in the distant future I will still have a job to commute to.
3. Noone knows whats going to happen at American from a competitive perspective. I am pretty sure what is going to happen to the pilot groups pay and benefits though.
We keep kicking the can down the road. People will fly or they won't. When is my union going to realize that this industry needs to quit decimating the livihoods of the workers it represents? Let us all know when this is the objective of our union. If it is not, let us know that too. By the time "the long view" comes to pass, Saudi Arabia will have pumped its last barrel of oil, China will own all the oil fields in Nigeria, the tar sand oil will go thru a pipeline to new refineries in China because our current administration wont let those pipelines be built thru america.
The next disaster is always going to be something. The ATA colludes against us. I just wish we had a union that would collude for us.
12-04-2011, 07:57 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Alfa;
Thanks for posting, we non-ALPA cheerleaders do appreciate it, but I gotta chime in.
I'll start with the bolded parts.
1. Soda straw: I am a Delta pilot, married to this company, a soda straw is all I can look thru. If my union thinks that Delta pilots need to be more magnanamous with distribution of flying, time it takes to "get well" and merger synergy payback, where do I sign up to decertify them.
2. Europe is in a massive debt meltdown: This european debt problem and the most recent loosening of money by the fed to help them is beyond the control of the Delta pilots. I can tell you what it does to us though. It makes our paycheck buy less. By devalueing the dollar and propping up the euro my retirement position weakens, my buying power shrinks, and this goes on for some amount of time in the future. Now, I have to be told by my union that this is good medicine for me because sometime in the distant future I will still have a job to commute to.
3. Noone knows whats going to happen at American from a competitive perspective. I am pretty sure what is going to happen to the pilot groups pay and benefits though.
We keep kicking the can down the road. People will fly or they won't. When is my union going to realize that this industry needs to quit decimating the livihoods of the workers it represents? Let us all know when this is the objective of our union. If it is not, let us know that too. By the time "the long view" comes to pass, Saudi Arabia will have pumped its last barrel of oil, China will own all the oil fields in Nigeria, the tar sand oil will go thru a pipeline to new refineries in China because our current administration wont let those pipelines be built thru america.
The next disaster is always going to be something. The ATA colludes against us. I just wish we had a union that would collude for us.
Thanks for posting, we non-ALPA cheerleaders do appreciate it, but I gotta chime in.
I'll start with the bolded parts.
1. Soda straw: I am a Delta pilot, married to this company, a soda straw is all I can look thru. If my union thinks that Delta pilots need to be more magnanamous with distribution of flying, time it takes to "get well" and merger synergy payback, where do I sign up to decertify them.
2. Europe is in a massive debt meltdown: This european debt problem and the most recent loosening of money by the fed to help them is beyond the control of the Delta pilots. I can tell you what it does to us though. It makes our paycheck buy less. By devalueing the dollar and propping up the euro my retirement position weakens, my buying power shrinks, and this goes on for some amount of time in the future. Now, I have to be told by my union that this is good medicine for me because sometime in the distant future I will still have a job to commute to.
3. Noone knows whats going to happen at American from a competitive perspective. I am pretty sure what is going to happen to the pilot groups pay and benefits though.
We keep kicking the can down the road. People will fly or they won't. When is my union going to realize that this industry needs to quit decimating the livihoods of the workers it represents? Let us all know when this is the objective of our union. If it is not, let us know that too. By the time "the long view" comes to pass, Saudi Arabia will have pumped its last barrel of oil, China will own all the oil fields in Nigeria, the tar sand oil will go thru a pipeline to new refineries in China because our current administration wont let those pipelines be built thru america.
The next disaster is always going to be something. The ATA colludes against us. I just wish we had a union that would collude for us.
12-04-2011, 08:17 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
We would have that 20% anyway without any JV's. In many cases, we've just moved the deck chairs around on each other's boats. After all, the capacity is supposed to be a 50-50 split...right? Or are you saying that without JV's, neither side would have this 20% capacity?
Carl
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