Originally Posted by Opus

A case for Delta pilots:

Yahoo finance ran an article recently stating that if under the original formula for minimum wage were applied today minimum wage would be 50k a year. This obviously is taking into consideration what the current dollar buying power is in today's world. If you extrapolate this out that puts the pilot position from middle class to lower class(regionals) pending one's position. So, the real question is where you believe the pilot profession should be. If at 4% raise as we are being told to expect then we have sealed the deal on this profession being a middle to lower middle class job. Remember at Delta that over half of our list will be retired in ten years being replaced with yr1,2,3 etc pilots on the lower end of the longevity pay scale (another big impending savings for the company.) If so, as Michael Boyd states, expect the makeup of the pilot group to change accordingly as well. Forget former military or even pilots with a college degree and say 'Hello' to mr/mrs. GED. Ergo, we will be fighting not only for our pilot group but for the profession as well.

Most analyst agree that for a person to change careers above the age of forty is very unlikely for multiple reasons. (Family to support, time to learn a new trade, initial years of diminished earning power etc.) Take note that USAir, United, Delta, and Northwest (American with the threat of BK) all went to BK knowing the limited opportunities that the older pilots groups had. Forcing staggering pay and work rule concessions. My friend who is a college professor is amazed at this and even admitted that professors would freak out if universities asked them for a pay cut to lower tuition. Thus, I know of no other profession that has taken such huge cuts in order to make their product affordable for the public.

If you compare the Delta merger with the other mergers in our industry (USAir&America West, United & Continental and now Southwest/Air Tran) ours has been the most successful by far. This company has enjoyed the "synergies" in tune of 3B in the past 18 months because of efforts made by both the North and South side, from integration, training and cohesion in the cockpit. I don't believe the other mergers will go so smoothly.

For those that say if we get Southwest pay rates our "costs" will be much higher than Southwest, and thus would be unsustainable, haven't looked at the full picture. Okay, sure, in a public school math way you might be right with very fuzzy math but with a deeper look one will see that is so not correct. First, it is not just about costs it is also about revenue. Southwest does not get HVC that pays 6k for a first class seat, nor does it collect money in stronger foreign currencies or even have the corporate contracts that Delta has. But you are correct in saying that Delta and Southwest are different entities. Delta doesn't bribe ATC officials for priority handling, nor manipulate city councils and airport boards for free landing fees and gates or in the case of Tampa, a whole new terminal. And the Delta pilot group isn't the Machiavellian Pri Madonnas that staples people to the bottom of the list for their own gain.

Finally, the past ten years this group has gone through 9/11 with the thought that on any given flight some freak might try and break down the door, BK with an effective 50% pay cut, degradation of work rules causing pilots to fly high time months never before seen on a continual basis, freezing/termination of their pension, stagnation because of age 65, and finally a merger. This pilot group, and pilots across America, have gone through the harshest time of any pilot group since our beginning in the 1920s and ironically, in terms of buying power, are paid lower than anytime in aviation history.

So, excuse me if asking for SWA, UPS or FedEx rates doesn't seem extreme. Heck, I just want to be middle class!

Originally Posted by Delta1067

How long on average does an award come out after the AE bid window closes?

Originally Posted by Opus

A case for Delta pilots:

... Take note that USAir, United, Delta, and Northwest (American with the threat of BK) all went to BK knowing the limited opportunities that the older pilots groups had. Forcing staggering pay and work rule concessions. My friend who is a college professor is amazed at this and even admitted that professors would freak out if universities asked them for a pay cut to lower tuition. Thus, I know of no other profession that has taken such huge cuts in order to make their product affordable for the public.

Originally Posted by Columbia

As is living outside of Peachtree City.

Originally Posted by Jabberwock

more people are going to college longer to compete in and in many cases to avoid the labor market. These people generally are not paying the costs of college, their parents are and the banks are. That bill has not yet come due, but will probably be the next large debt default coming our way after Europe.

Originally Posted by NuGuy

Heyas Shoe,

Thanks for posting that...when the heck do you guys eat on a trip?


It sounds like your system is "real time", and that all add, drop and swap requests are performed by the computer instantanously.

The DAL system, to compare, also has two separate trip trading systems, but there are significant differences from the SWA system.

The normal "swap/add/drop" with the company, including swapping with open time, is run 4 times a day. Drops are only permitted when there is sufficient reserve coverage for each day of the drop, and swaps are permitted only if the cummulative reserve coverage is par or better (there's a fussy little formula).

No out of base adding of trips is allowed, except for same day, next day flying.

The pilot-to-pilot swap board runs separately from this system, and has no caps, and works in real time. No out of base P-T-P swaps.

The main problem with doing the kinds of trip trading that you describe is the premium system at DAL is ONLY for trips that are same day/next day. It only pays the premium after a certain point (usually 73-75 hours). This REALLY restricts the type of cherry picking maniuplation that you describe, because it eliminates most commuters. It really only is good for guys who live in base. It does pay 200%.

OTOH, the fNWA system paid less, but was more flexible for commuters. Like SWA, the company designated premium trips that paid %150, but they alsy paid %150 for everything over 80. If you did a premium trip AND went over 80, the multipliers stacked (%225). You could add or swap into premium time for premium flying any time during the month (or next), so it was workable for commuters.

The restrictions on swapping from open time were less restrictive, but there was no mechanism for dropping trips, and open time ran once a day.

A "best practices" system, IMHO, would take the DAL PCS/swap system, and use the fNWA premium system. Maybe make the system run in real time, but there would be a TON of resistance from senior guys, becase the current system works to their benefit. The in-base guys would throw a fit to get rid of the current system as well, since it also benefits them.

Nu

Originally Posted by gloopy

The college bubble is massive and will pop hard, taking a lot of the middle class down with it. College debt already exceeds consumer spending/credit card debt and is increasing far faster than earnings or employment opportunities. Its caused educational inflation that invalidates itself despite its soaring costs. With all the artificial subsidies that industry gets, both direct and indirect (529 scams, etc) and the entitlement mindset, people have been lining up in droves to throw money at worthless degrees regardless of cost. That will change and change hard. The new loan forgivness is yet another multiplier of this bubble that will burst harder than the housing bubble.

And yet even today people still scrimp and save, by hook or by crook, to get their kids up to 6 figure bachleor's degrees just so they can party hardy and escape reality for a few years and pretend to be mini adults while avoiding the real world. When the college bubble pops, the squealing for taxpayer/currency devaluation bailouts will shriek louder than anything that ever came from Wall Street.