Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
11-20-2011, 04:59 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: Lowest Pay I Could Find
Posts: 1,044
Dalpa's opener will be constructed off the contract survey. I can tell you right now it wont be for more then 42 percent. I doubt it will be even close to that number. That is based on asking pilots I fly with and friends what they put on the survey and having been told the results of a prior phone survey.
If we do open for something like that what do you think will be the result. Do you think management will think wow the pilots are tough we better give them that or do you perhaps think management will simply enjoy the protection of the RLA and kick back for a 5 or 6 years of us working under the current contract. Do you think we would have a different outcome then American? If so what do you base that on? Do you know the average length of negotiations that end up under the NMRB and the mediation process?
If we do open for something like that what do you think will be the result. Do you think management will think wow the pilots are tough we better give them that or do you perhaps think management will simply enjoy the protection of the RLA and kick back for a 5 or 6 years of us working under the current contract. Do you think we would have a different outcome then American? If so what do you base that on? Do you know the average length of negotiations that end up under the NMRB and the mediation process?
11-20-2011, 05:33 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
GO BIG ORANGE
Back to the rest of the party
Back to the rest of the party
11-20-2011, 05:37 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
11-20-2011, 05:50 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Dalpa's opener will be constructed off the contract survey. I can tell you right now it wont be for more then 42 percent. I doubt it will be even close to that number. That is based on asking pilots I fly with and friends what they put on the survey and having been told the results of a prior phone survey.
And then...
No I don't think we will open for less then SW. I think most pilots want a contract that puts us in their compensation rate without giving up concessions in other areas to come down to their manning rate.
That will put our overall pilot block hour costs well above SW. Its also about the minimum I am willing to take.
That will put our overall pilot block hour costs well above SW. Its also about the minimum I am willing to take.
Like I've always said, we'll have to fight DALPA just as hard as management if we are to have any shot at an industry leading contract. Darn shame.
Carl
11-20-2011, 06:00 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Dalpa's opener will be constructed off the contract survey. I can tell you right now it wont be for more then 42 percent. I doubt it will be even close to that number. That is based on asking pilots I fly with and friends what they put on the survey and having been told the results of a prior phone survey.
If we do open for something like that what do you think will be the result. Do you think management will think wow the pilots are tough we better give them that or do you perhaps think management will simply enjoy the protection of the RLA and kick back for a 5 or 6 years of us working under the current contract. Do you think we would have a different outcome then American? If so what do you base that on? Do you know the average length of negotiations that end up under the NMRB and the mediation process?
If we do open for something like that what do you think will be the result. Do you think management will think wow the pilots are tough we better give them that or do you perhaps think management will simply enjoy the protection of the RLA and kick back for a 5 or 6 years of us working under the current contract. Do you think we would have a different outcome then American? If so what do you base that on? Do you know the average length of negotiations that end up under the NMRB and the mediation process?
Key to this defeatist strategy of ALPA is to run away from any strategy that could defeat this NMB based paradigm. Specifically, using the SWAPA contract in its entirety as the bargaining leverage we need. Instead we have the ALPA apologists like slowplay here parroting the strategy of defeat before Section 6 even begins.
If we fall for the ALPA/management strategy of accepting defeat before Section 6 begins, I don't think we'll have much sympathy from any of our peers.
Carl
11-20-2011, 06:02 PM
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Space Shuttle PIC
Posts: 2,007
You seem more focused on your anti ALPA stance then getting the best possible contract for Delta pilots.
The pot of money is as I stated somewhat finite. There are points for both sides beyond which they are not going to go. That is why accurate costing is such a big part of the overall contract process. The company does not give a damn what our hourly pay rate ends up being. What they care about is the total pilot block hour cost. In most cases we as a union choose how that money is going to be split up within some norms and limits where management feels it might have other impacts. (example would be to redirect pilot pay from new hires to Captains. Even though total cost might remain the same the company with the coming possible pilot shortage might balk and say no wanting to keep new hire pay up and make the job more attractive when recruiting.)
To state that each section of the contract stands alone on a cost basis simply makes no sense and is not true. They are all related and in the end produce the total pilot block hour cost. That is also the number that if we end up in mediation the NRMB will be looking at the hardest. How we arrive at that total pilot cost will again for the most part be up to us as a pilot group.
If you believe the pot of money for pilots is unlimited and simply a matter of demanding what we want then you have never run a business on your own. Cost is king and pilots in the end are simply another cost to be managed by the company. The RLA sadly gives management a huge toolbox to manage that expense.
The pot of money is as I stated somewhat finite. There are points for both sides beyond which they are not going to go. That is why accurate costing is such a big part of the overall contract process. The company does not give a damn what our hourly pay rate ends up being. What they care about is the total pilot block hour cost. In most cases we as a union choose how that money is going to be split up within some norms and limits where management feels it might have other impacts. (example would be to redirect pilot pay from new hires to Captains. Even though total cost might remain the same the company with the coming possible pilot shortage might balk and say no wanting to keep new hire pay up and make the job more attractive when recruiting.)
To state that each section of the contract stands alone on a cost basis simply makes no sense and is not true. They are all related and in the end produce the total pilot block hour cost. That is also the number that if we end up in mediation the NRMB will be looking at the hardest. How we arrive at that total pilot cost will again for the most part be up to us as a pilot group.
If you believe the pot of money for pilots is unlimited and simply a matter of demanding what we want then you have never run a business on your own. Cost is king and pilots in the end are simply another cost to be managed by the company. The RLA sadly gives management a huge toolbox to manage that expense.
What should we do for Captain vs junior Co-pilot wages? Just bring SWA 737 rates for our own 737 Capts/FOs, and higher for bigger equipment. That should take care of all arguments. It's easy to figure out, and it is the cost of doing business.
As far as Dalpa goes or the DPA, I just want to get what WE DESERVE. Dalpa has the first shot at it. If they do well, I bet the DPA drive will stop in it's tracks until the next foul up, like age 70 retirements. If Dalpa doesn't do well and produces us a lame TA with lame excuses, then I bet the DPA will soar, and Dalpa could get voted out and even if it takes longer, the threat of another merger will push management to deal, and the DPA will get it for us. The rumor out there is that someone way high up said we need about 33% of the domestic industry to be incharge of the fares and somewhat "bullet proof". Right now we are at 28%. That means possible merger approaching. That is leverage. If Dalpa does well, then great. If not, they are GONE.
11-20-2011, 06:03 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: Lowest Pay I Could Find
Posts: 1,044
Can't you just hear sailingfun's DALPA contacts saying: "What the **** are you trying to do to us here man? We can't let this stuff out to the members until they see it in the Tentative Agreement. Now go back in there and fix this. We're not paying you that volunteer flight pay loss for nothing!"
And then...
Most of us are able to remember your previous posts and see your double speak here sailingfun. It's just so amazing that DALPA is stooping to this level of activity. The constant lowering of expectations, mischaracterization of SWAPA's contract, and purposeful omission of Air France pay makes you guys look like you are literally being funded by management.
Like I've always said, we'll have to fight DALPA just as hard as management if we are to have any shot at an industry leading contract. Darn shame.
Carl
And then...
Most of us are able to remember your previous posts and see your double speak here sailingfun. It's just so amazing that DALPA is stooping to this level of activity. The constant lowering of expectations, mischaracterization of SWAPA's contract, and purposeful omission of Air France pay makes you guys look like you are literally being funded by management.
Like I've always said, we'll have to fight DALPA just as hard as management if we are to have any shot at an industry leading contract. Darn shame.
Carl
11-20-2011, 06:08 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
I simply called and asked how much credit the average Delta pilots gets. You can call crew planning and get the numbers or ask your CP's office. The Caps at Delta average 79 hours a year. You can pick up the cap plus 15. I have been in big and small categories and junior and senior. There is almost always time to pick up to fly to what you want. In 25 years the only situation where I could not fly what I wanted was in a category that was closing. I suspect that applies at the moment to the DC9.
Your total pay in a category is a combination of what you fly, vacation pay, reroute pay, training pay, Greenslip Pay, Assignment Pay ect...
I know lots of pilots who always average over 100. I flew 14 days last DEC and credited 186 hours of pay. I am very comfortable with the 87 hour number per month as a average. Not only is it the number I was given on the phone its the number used as mentioned in flight pay loss calculations last year. Some pilots will be less then that such as a reserve guy in a overmanned category and some will be quite a bit more then that number. Some will be way more then that number.
Lineholder who flies 80 hours average 960
Vacation using 4 weeks 84 hours
training pay 15 hours
one reroute pay event a year 15 hours
2 GS or assignments a years 15 hour trips 60 hours
The above example averages 94 hours a month and is not the least bit unusual. We have a bunch of pilots who will credit way above those amounts. In fact when the 2011 total hours come out the numbers I suspect will be up from 87 average not down. There were a tremendous amount of GS flown both last winter and summer. Normally GS are a mostly summer event. In my category you could essentially fly a GS every month regardless of seniority from last Jan through Aug.
As I mentioned there will be guys who credit way less then 87. A reserve pilot who is in a over manned category is a example. For each guy like that however there is a guy who will credit way more.
Again simply call and ask. Its kind of like the SW pay situation. I post numbers compiled by MIT off the actual airline financial reports and they are called bogus by pilots who produce no numbers themselves. In 2010 the average Delta pilot earned 142,000 in total earnings. 87X12 is 1044 hours. 142,000 divided by 142,000 is 136 dollars an hour. A quick glance at the pay tables suggest that based on fleet size the average copilot pay in 2010 was around 115 a hour and Captains around 162 or so. Devide that out and you get 138 dollars a hour. Those are 12 year rates so the number has to be adjusted down for pilots under 12 years. Probably end up at about 136 a hour which ends up at 87 hours a month. Now show me your math.
Your total pay in a category is a combination of what you fly, vacation pay, reroute pay, training pay, Greenslip Pay, Assignment Pay ect...
I know lots of pilots who always average over 100. I flew 14 days last DEC and credited 186 hours of pay. I am very comfortable with the 87 hour number per month as a average. Not only is it the number I was given on the phone its the number used as mentioned in flight pay loss calculations last year. Some pilots will be less then that such as a reserve guy in a overmanned category and some will be quite a bit more then that number. Some will be way more then that number.
Lineholder who flies 80 hours average 960
Vacation using 4 weeks 84 hours
training pay 15 hours
one reroute pay event a year 15 hours
2 GS or assignments a years 15 hour trips 60 hours
The above example averages 94 hours a month and is not the least bit unusual. We have a bunch of pilots who will credit way above those amounts. In fact when the 2011 total hours come out the numbers I suspect will be up from 87 average not down. There were a tremendous amount of GS flown both last winter and summer. Normally GS are a mostly summer event. In my category you could essentially fly a GS every month regardless of seniority from last Jan through Aug.
As I mentioned there will be guys who credit way less then 87. A reserve pilot who is in a over manned category is a example. For each guy like that however there is a guy who will credit way more.
Again simply call and ask. Its kind of like the SW pay situation. I post numbers compiled by MIT off the actual airline financial reports and they are called bogus by pilots who produce no numbers themselves. In 2010 the average Delta pilot earned 142,000 in total earnings. 87X12 is 1044 hours. 142,000 divided by 142,000 is 136 dollars an hour. A quick glance at the pay tables suggest that based on fleet size the average copilot pay in 2010 was around 115 a hour and Captains around 162 or so. Devide that out and you get 138 dollars a hour. Those are 12 year rates so the number has to be adjusted down for pilots under 12 years. Probably end up at about 136 a hour which ends up at 87 hours a month. Now show me your math.
Despite your constant attempts to lie about the SWAPA contract, it IS the industry leader in darn near every section...ESPECIALLY SCOPE. The answer is clear: keep all your goofy comparisons and even goofier attempts at math, just put the SWAPA contract on the table at the end and say, "You want to call the NMB or should we?" But if DALPA really wanted to accept that strategy, they would need to stop lying about the SWAPA contract. You and DALPA do NOT want that strategy. You want to use the scarecrow of the NMB to get us to accept defeat prior to Section 6. I think you'll fail. I hope you'll fail.
Carl
11-20-2011, 06:13 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Be more specific. Do you want their unadjusted rate? In other words, a 12 year Captain gets $186.06/TFP? Or do you want the supposedly adjusted for TFP rate of $210? Why the focus on rate? Is this a **** measuring contest? Or do you want our domestic narrowbody pilots to actually bring home as much money as SWA pilots to support our families... and to do so working about the same number of days?
Well, which is it? Cause if you're talking anything less than some combination of rates and work rules that result in anything less than about a 50% increase in W2 for our MD-88/90 pilots (and that same percentage increase applied across the board to the rest of our fleet), then you are advocating that we should be making LESS than SWA pilots for essentially the same job. In fact, from what you have previously posted, it sure sounds to me like you are advocating that we should be making significantly less than SWA pilots!
You're trying to play both sides of this argument. And we're not stupid.
Well, which is it? Cause if you're talking anything less than some combination of rates and work rules that result in anything less than about a 50% increase in W2 for our MD-88/90 pilots (and that same percentage increase applied across the board to the rest of our fleet), then you are advocating that we should be making LESS than SWA pilots for essentially the same job. In fact, from what you have previously posted, it sure sounds to me like you are advocating that we should be making significantly less than SWA pilots!
You're trying to play both sides of this argument. And we're not stupid.
Carl
11-20-2011, 06:19 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
I had the same reaction when I read Sailing's post, but at the same time, I was somewhat happy to hear him semi-quantify his contract wishes...The reason I say this is because I think his perspective is probably DALPA reality. He is not an insider, but he is informed. Draw your own conclusions from there.
This is the preview of the DALPA sales pitch. Its not going to be sold on w-2, its going to be sold on payrates. This approach appeals to the Delta pilot who wants to believe - through denial - that he is still at the top of the pyramid airline.
Will another aspect of the contract have their (swa's) scope clause?
This is the preview of the DALPA sales pitch. Its not going to be sold on w-2, its going to be sold on payrates. This approach appeals to the Delta pilot who wants to believe - through denial - that he is still at the top of the pyramid airline.
Will another aspect of the contract have their (swa's) scope clause?
Very insightful post scambo!
Carl
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
