Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
11-20-2011, 01:45 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,574
I simply called and asked how much credit the average Delta pilots gets. You can call crew planning and get the numbers or ask your CP's office. The Caps at Delta average 79 hours a year. You can pick up the cap plus 15. I have been in big and small categories and junior and senior. There is almost always time to pick up to fly to what you want. In 25 years the only situation where I could not fly what I wanted was in a category that was closing. I suspect that applies at the moment to the DC9.
Your total pay in a category is a combination of what you fly, vacation pay, reroute pay, training pay, Greenslip Pay, Assignment Pay ect...
I know lots of pilots who always average over 100. I flew 14 days last DEC and credited 186 hours of pay. I am very comfortable with the 87 hour number per month as a average. Not only is it the number I was given on the phone its the number used as mentioned in flight pay loss calculations last year. Some pilots will be less then that such as a reserve guy in a overmanned category and some will be quite a bit more then that number. Some will be way more then that number.
Lineholder who flies 80 hours average 960
Vacation using 4 weeks 84 hours
training pay 15 hours
one reroute pay event a year 15 hours
2 GS or assignments a years 15 hour trips 60 hours
The above example averages 94 hours a month and is not the least bit unusual. We have a bunch of pilots who will credit way above those amounts. In fact when the 2011 total hours come out the numbers I suspect will be up from 87 average not down. There were a tremendous amount of GS flown both last winter and summer. Normally GS are a mostly summer event. In my category you could essentially fly a GS every month regardless of seniority from last Jan through Aug.
As I mentioned there will be guys who credit way less then 87. A reserve pilot who is in a over manned category is a example. For each guy like that however there is a guy who will credit way more.
Again simply call and ask. Its kind of like the SW pay situation. I post numbers compiled by MIT off the actual airline financial reports and they are called bogus by pilots who produce no numbers themselves. In 2010 the average Delta pilot earned 142,000 in total earnings. 87X12 is 1044 hours. 142,000 divided by 142,000 is 136 dollars an hour. A quick glance at the pay tables suggest that based on fleet size the average copilot pay in 2010 was around 115 a hour and Captains around 162 or so. Devide that out and you get 138 dollars a hour. Those are 12 year rates so the number has to be adjusted down for pilots under 12 years. Probably end up at about 136 a hour which ends up at 87 hours a month. Now show me your math.
Your total pay in a category is a combination of what you fly, vacation pay, reroute pay, training pay, Greenslip Pay, Assignment Pay ect...
I know lots of pilots who always average over 100. I flew 14 days last DEC and credited 186 hours of pay. I am very comfortable with the 87 hour number per month as a average. Not only is it the number I was given on the phone its the number used as mentioned in flight pay loss calculations last year. Some pilots will be less then that such as a reserve guy in a overmanned category and some will be quite a bit more then that number. Some will be way more then that number.
Lineholder who flies 80 hours average 960
Vacation using 4 weeks 84 hours
training pay 15 hours
one reroute pay event a year 15 hours
2 GS or assignments a years 15 hour trips 60 hours
The above example averages 94 hours a month and is not the least bit unusual. We have a bunch of pilots who will credit way above those amounts. In fact when the 2011 total hours come out the numbers I suspect will be up from 87 average not down. There were a tremendous amount of GS flown both last winter and summer. Normally GS are a mostly summer event. In my category you could essentially fly a GS every month regardless of seniority from last Jan through Aug.
As I mentioned there will be guys who credit way less then 87. A reserve pilot who is in a over manned category is a example. For each guy like that however there is a guy who will credit way more.
Again simply call and ask. Its kind of like the SW pay situation. I post numbers compiled by MIT off the actual airline financial reports and they are called bogus by pilots who produce no numbers themselves. In 2010 the average Delta pilot earned 142,000 in total earnings. 87X12 is 1044 hours. 142,000 divided by 142,000 is 136 dollars an hour. A quick glance at the pay tables suggest that based on fleet size the average copilot pay in 2010 was around 115 a hour and Captains around 162 or so. Devide that out and you get 138 dollars a hour. Those are 12 year rates so the number has to be adjusted down for pilots under 12 years. Probably end up at about 136 a hour which ends up at 87 hours a month. Now show me your math.
11-20-2011, 02:30 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,574
That will put our overall pilot block hour costs well above SW. Its also about the minimum I am willing to take.
11-20-2011, 02:34 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Posts: 107
11-20-2011, 02:34 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
If you want to debate the dpa, take it to that thread. Final warning.
11-20-2011, 02:43 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
OK, I want $1000/hr, 8 weeks of vacation, touching trips, and 600 hours of sick leave at full pay. Figure I'll fly two trips/year, and make an even $1 million. If you think that is unreasonable, then you are acknowledging the pot is finite, which is all sailing was trying to say.
11-20-2011, 03:21 PM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
No I don't think we will open for less then SW. I think most pilots want a contract that puts us in their compensation rate without giving up concessions in other areas to come down to their manning rate.
That will put our overall pilot block hour costs well above SW. Its also about the minimum I am willing to take.
That will put our overall pilot block hour costs well above SW. Its also about the minimum I am willing to take.
Well, which is it? Cause if you're talking anything less than some combination of rates and work rules that result in anything less than about a 50% increase in W2 for our MD-88/90 pilots (and that same percentage increase applied across the board to the rest of our fleet), then you are advocating that we should be making LESS than SWA pilots for essentially the same job. In fact, from what you have previously posted, it sure sounds to me like you are advocating that we should be making significantly less than SWA pilots!
You're trying to play both sides of this argument. And we're not stupid.
11-20-2011, 03:43 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Be more specific. Do you want their unadjusted rate? In other words, a 12 year Captain gets $186.06/TFP? Or do you want the supposedly adjusted for TFP rate of $210? Why the focus on rate? Is this a **** measuring contest? Or do you want our domestic narrowbody pilots to actually bring home as much money as SWA pilots to support our families... and to do so working about the same number of days?
Well, which is it? Cause if you're talking anything less than some combination of rates and work rules that result in anything less than about a 50% increase in W2 for our MD-88/90 pilots (and that same percentage increase applied across the board to the rest of our fleet), then you are advocating that we should be making LESS than SWA pilots for essentially the same job. In fact, from what you have previously posted, it sure sounds to me like you are advocating that we should be making significantly less than SWA pilots!
You're trying to play both sides of this argument. And we're not stupid.
Well, which is it? Cause if you're talking anything less than some combination of rates and work rules that result in anything less than about a 50% increase in W2 for our MD-88/90 pilots (and that same percentage increase applied across the board to the rest of our fleet), then you are advocating that we should be making LESS than SWA pilots for essentially the same job. In fact, from what you have previously posted, it sure sounds to me like you are advocating that we should be making significantly less than SWA pilots!
You're trying to play both sides of this argument. And we're not stupid.
This is the preview of the DALPA sales pitch. Its not going to be sold on w-2, its going to be sold on payrates. This approach appeals to the Delta pilot who wants to believe - through denial - that he is still at the top of the pyramid airline.
Will another aspect of the contract have their (swa's) scope clause?
11-20-2011, 04:07 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,574
Be more specific. Do you want their unadjusted rate? In other words, a 12 year Captain gets $186.06/TFP? Or do you want the supposedly adjusted for TFP rate of $210? Why the focus on rate? Is this a **** measuring contest? Or do you want our domestic narrowbody pilots to actually bring home as much money as SWA pilots to support our families... and to do so working about the same number of days?
Well, which is it? Cause if you're talking anything less than some combination of rates and work rules that result in anything less than about a 50% increase in W2 for our MD-88/90 pilots (and that same percentage increase applied across the board to the rest of our fleet), then you are advocating that we should be making LESS than SWA pilots for essentially the same job. In fact, from what you have previously posted, it sure sounds to me like you are advocating that we should be making significantly less than SWA pilots!
You're trying to play both sides of this argument. And we're not stupid.
Well, which is it? Cause if you're talking anything less than some combination of rates and work rules that result in anything less than about a 50% increase in W2 for our MD-88/90 pilots (and that same percentage increase applied across the board to the rest of our fleet), then you are advocating that we should be making LESS than SWA pilots for essentially the same job. In fact, from what you have previously posted, it sure sounds to me like you are advocating that we should be making significantly less than SWA pilots!
You're trying to play both sides of this argument. And we're not stupid.
Your 50% number could never be supported in front of the nmb. The actual hourly adusted rate for SW is 212 an hour not 210. That is the rate I am using. Our rate for a 737 CA will be 181 or so on 1 Jan. As far as days worked again many here are taking a number out of context. The pamphlet put out to Airtran stated over the last 5 years SW pilots averaged 12 days of work per month. What that means is that when you average in days a reserve pilot worked with days a line pilot worked and then account for vacation, sick, mil leave, dropped trips ect.. the average was 12 days. The average will be less then 12 for Delta pilots over the same days. When the 2011 numbers come out the total compensation for Delta will be even closer then 2010 with SW. We had a huge number of double pay trips, a 4 percent raise and 6 percent profit sharing. The 2010 numbers again from MIT were 166,000 for SW pilots on average and 142,000 for Delta pilots on average. Go before the NMB and throw out 50% to get even and you will not look good or even smart. The exact numbers we will there for both sides to see.
I do however believe our goal should be for the MD88 to come up to SW. That slants the numbers more in our favor.
11-20-2011, 04:44 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 737 Capt
Posts: 1,166
Dalpa's opener will be constructed off the contract survey. I can tell you right now it wont be for more then 42 percent. I doubt it will be even close to that number. That is based on asking pilots I fly with and friends what they put on the survey and having been told the results of a prior phone survey.
If we do open for something like that what do you think will be the result. Do you think management will think wow the pilots are tough we better give them that or do you perhaps think management will simply enjoy the protection of the RLA and kick back for a 5 or 6 years of us working under the current contract. Do you think we would have a different outcome then American? If so what do you base that on? Do you know the average length of negotiations that end up under the NMRB and the mediation process?
If we do open for something like that what do you think will be the result. Do you think management will think wow the pilots are tough we better give them that or do you perhaps think management will simply enjoy the protection of the RLA and kick back for a 5 or 6 years of us working under the current contract. Do you think we would have a different outcome then American? If so what do you base that on? Do you know the average length of negotiations that end up under the NMRB and the mediation process?
11-20-2011, 04:53 PM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Your 50% number could never be supported in front of the nmb. The actual hourly adusted rate for SW is 212 an hour not 210. That is the rate I am using. Our rate for a 737 CA will be 181 or so on 1 Jan. As far as days worked again many here are taking a number out of context. The pamphlet put out to Airtran stated over the last 5 years SW pilots averaged 12 days of work per month. What that means is that when you average in days a reserve pilot worked with days a line pilot worked and then account for vacation, sick, mil leave, dropped trips ect.. the average was 12 days. The average will be less then 12 for Delta pilots over the same days. When the 2011 numbers come out the total compensation for Delta will be even closer then 2010 with SW. We had a huge number of double pay trips, a 4 percent raise and 6 percent profit sharing. The 2010 numbers again from MIT were 166,000 for SW pilots on average and 142,000 for Delta pilots on average. Go before the NMB and throw out 50% to get even and you will not look good or even smart. The exact numbers we will there for both sides to see.
I do however believe our goal should be for the MD88 to come up to SW. That slants the numbers more in our favor.
I do however believe our goal should be for the MD88 to come up to SW. That slants the numbers more in our favor.
The MIT project that touts those numbers is headed by a guy who specializes in minimizing airline labor costs. Again, we're just not that stupid.I picked up at the hotel this morning at 4:30am. Finished my trip, and now I'm at home coming down with a cold. I'm running out of steam tonight, so I'll let Carl finish you off on this one. I predict he's going to take you apart. I'll be traveling all day tomorrow for Thanksgiving. I'll check back in a couple of days... popcorn in hand. This should be good!
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