Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
11-11-2011, 01:09 PM
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Personally I don't think a 1 year seat lock for a new hire is that big of a deal. Anyone leaving an airline to start at another airline knows the gig - we all start at the bottom.
Hopefully all the new hires are coming to a much stronger and reliable company, partly based on sacrifices that we all made - albeit not always willingly.
First year pay is the same and they will also benefit from any change to the 23a,b,c,d,e,f,g.
If we want to take care of Pilots - how about taking care of our own? Hey here is an idea - how about we work on eliminating the current Alaska LAX and SEA carve outs?
One more thing to think about - What if this supposed 1 year lock was the deciding factor that prompts the company to start hiring 1 year earlier than without it? How do you think the new hires would feel about that? How would we all feel about that?
Scoop
Hopefully all the new hires are coming to a much stronger and reliable company, partly based on sacrifices that we all made - albeit not always willingly.
First year pay is the same and they will also benefit from any change to the 23a,b,c,d,e,f,g.
If we want to take care of Pilots - how about taking care of our own? Hey here is an idea - how about we work on eliminating the current Alaska LAX and SEA carve outs?
One more thing to think about - What if this supposed 1 year lock was the deciding factor that prompts the company to start hiring 1 year earlier than without it? How do you think the new hires would feel about that? How would we all feel about that?
Scoop
11-11-2011, 01:11 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
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While I would rather us not have "given this up," each carrier has it's own deal as far as newbs. At FDX you may end up in HKG for a while, for example.
IF... and a big IF this rumor is true, I certainly hope to see some serious gains in section 23 out of this.
IF... and a big IF this rumor is true, I certainly hope to see some serious gains in section 23 out of this.
11-11-2011, 01:13 PM
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First, do you understand the increases in manning for FO's that will result in no 23.G obligations. Look at the training that will be required going forward, think about the number of OE's that will have to be done. Every one of those FO's is off the hook, completely. That is worth 3-4% staffing in each seat alone. Suffice to say fixing this is huge.
Second, it is a TA it has not been ratified. Want MEMRAT? Call your reps. It will pass by over 90% easy. If you have been subjected to 23G you will know what a huge gain this is.
The quid:
Most new hires do two training events in their first year. It helps DAL stabilize training and increase the new hire training footprint going forward. That is good for them, and ultimately good for us.
DAL was one of the few airlines that did not have an initial training freeze. They used to btw.
23K and G would have cost us a ton of negotiation capital in Section 6, now that is done. It would cost less to get the 12 month lock taken off new hires.
Yes, there was a quid, but frankly for the increase in staffing and WS awards that this will generate, we as a pilot group will come out ahead.
11-11-2011, 01:17 PM
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I guess I see the other side of the argument. Like 80 said, FDX has HKG, CAL has no health insurance for 6 months, etc, etc. Everyone has warts. Nonetheless, I hate to see us negotiating away stuff for people who aren't even here yet. Sets a dangerous precedent IMO.
However, if the company approached ALPA with this concession, they must see some monetary value in it. Might it mean they're planning on hiring sooner than they're planning on settling C2012 and they see new-hire movement across the system as being costlier than recovery flying???
11-11-2011, 01:17 PM
Line Holder
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23K and 23G5 may not affect all categories equally, but for those on the ER (esp in NYC), eliminating 23G5 is a HUGE gain and improving 23K is a BIG leap forward as well.
11-11-2011, 01:20 PM
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Have to disagree with the statement that new hires have lots of choices. Their choices are limited to the company's needs at the time. When I got hired at "Brand X", as I recall the choices were DTW DC9, MEM DC9, and ANC 742. Now, assuming I went to work at "Brand X" because I live in MSP and want to work in MSP (neither of which are true, thank goodness.... 
), I think it's a good thing that I was afforded the right to bid that ASAP.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for seat locks to reduce excessive bidding around the system and unnecessary training costs. But to lock a new-hire with a family and a house and the whole deal in, say, DTW, into flying out of NYC or LAX (yeah, yeah, I know we don't actually fly out of LAX anymore..) for a year just because those were the company's whimsical needs at the moment is a cruddy deal. Odds are that guy will have applied to Delta because he has an expectation to drive to work.
Not looking out for the "yet to be hired" will bite us in the butt in the near long term. Stuff like this will drive qualified applicants elsewhere.
And... selling the not-yet-hired out has a pretty poor history. See "B Scale"...
Then again, if this last AE is any indicator, most of us are going to end up commuting to a base/seat we don't really want eventually anyway, so...
), I think it's a good thing that I was afforded the right to bid that ASAP. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for seat locks to reduce excessive bidding around the system and unnecessary training costs. But to lock a new-hire with a family and a house and the whole deal in, say, DTW, into flying out of NYC or LAX (yeah, yeah, I know we don't actually fly out of LAX anymore..) for a year just because those were the company's whimsical needs at the moment is a cruddy deal. Odds are that guy will have applied to Delta because he has an expectation to drive to work.
Not looking out for the "yet to be hired" will bite us in the butt in the near long term. Stuff like this will drive qualified applicants elsewhere.
And... selling the not-yet-hired out has a pretty poor history. See "B Scale"...
Then again, if this last AE is any indicator, most of us are going to end up commuting to a base/seat we don't really want eventually anyway, so...
BTW: I wasn't saying that you said all of those things.
Last edited by Waves; 11-11-2011 at 01:29 PM. Reason: Added last statement
11-11-2011, 01:21 PM
Da Hudge
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11-11-2011, 01:23 PM
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We better well have received something very juicy in return for that MAJOR concession. ALPA is dead to me if we gave away that concession for cheap or free. And to double down on that, if I hear it was done for negotiating capital, I might blow up a plastic rat on my front lawn and watch it do nothing to change the situation.
11-11-2011, 01:24 PM
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The monthly update from crew resources says that among the legacy carriers, we have the highest pilot average age. This is news to me. I thought we were behind UAL and American. They still say no hiring for 2012 though. 
Now that I think about it, what domestic, non-legacy carrier has an old pilot group. I wonder why they worded it like that? If we're old, as in the oldest, just say we are old.
Now that I think about it, what domestic, non-legacy carrier has an old pilot group. I wonder why they worded it like that? If we're old, as in the oldest, just say we are old.
We have more retirements that AMR, but UCAL is going to be going fairly strong here in a few years as well.
11-11-2011, 01:27 PM
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23G 5 being removed is huge. No recovery for OE. Our Negotiators sold the company on this because there is no way that a 12 month freeze is worth that increase in manning in many of these seats.
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