Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
10-25-2011, 08:29 AM
Don't want to participate
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: 737 Left Seat
Posts: 1,016
Actually if it came out that SWA pay is not enough I did not explain myself correctly. What I am saying is that achieving SWA pilots costs is not enough. No matter what the forum legends are on SW when we are before the NMB the actual numbers will be used. If we offered the company SWA pilot costs verses are 2 man pilot costs the company would sign that minute. In the last reported year SWA pilots average 166,000 in pay. Delta pilots average 142,000 in pay. Add in the 5 percent difference in DC money and the numbers are not that far apart.
What I put in my survey is that I would like to see us attempt to achieve SWA pilot pay rates on the MD88 with the rest of the fleets adjusted accordingly. That will put our actual block hour pilot costs quite a bit above SW. I also wanted significant raises each year of the contract in addition to the upfront raise.
Having asked quite a few pilots what they put down as a acceptable raise I can tell you that out of around 10 guys I was on the high side. Only 1 asked for more then I did in the survey. Not really a valid sample but I will bet money the average pilot in the survey fell in the 15 to 20 percent raise category.
What I put in my survey is that I would like to see us attempt to achieve SWA pilot pay rates on the MD88 with the rest of the fleets adjusted accordingly. That will put our actual block hour pilot costs quite a bit above SW. I also wanted significant raises each year of the contract in addition to the upfront raise.
Having asked quite a few pilots what they put down as a acceptable raise I can tell you that out of around 10 guys I was on the high side. Only 1 asked for more then I did in the survey. Not really a valid sample but I will bet money the average pilot in the survey fell in the 15 to 20 percent raise category.
There seems to be an error in the total number of pilots at SWA. Their charts show a sudden jump of 5.2 crews per aircraft to 5.9 from 2009 to 2010. That number is not correct. MIT shows that SWA hired around 800 pilots in 2010, making their calculations wildly inaccurate. Actual number of pilots hired in 2010 was zero.
If you compare the total cockpit cost per block hour for narrowbody equipment, SWA cockpit cost per hour rose from $630 to $691. SWA's scheduling practices and contract did not change appreciably in 2010 other than a pay rate increase. To compare, Delta currently shows $552 total cost per hour for 2010.
Anyway, the $166,000 average salary figure is not correct. If you use the correct number of pilots, the average SWA salary is actually well above $186,000 per year. My past history of Delta bashing aside, that is the real info.
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2...0EQUIPMENT.htm
Last edited by LuvJockey; 10-25-2011 at 08:55 AM.
10-25-2011, 08:32 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: DAL FO
Posts: 2,167
First, very bad sign that the union has to extend the deadline...seriously? Second, we are a cash business...let's break our pay paradigm and get a per cent of the gross. Let's be a true cost of doing business like all the other vendors (boeing, airbus, ge, catering, etc.).
Now as far as the survey, from a 24yr 767 captain:
1. Significant reduction in scoped out flying, without it nothing else matters.
2. 40% day one. 5%/yr til next contract is signed.
3. 6hr/calendar day for all work events. i.e. fly, dh only day, suit up pay, layover only day, initial qual, cq, vacation day, everything is 6hr/calendar day!
4. 75hr guarantee reg/res.
5. Reg/res get paid the same on same rotation.
6. Return seniority to res. If it requires more pilots, so be it.
7. 23k goes to bottom of 23n & 23o coverage ladders. Also, must return within 4hrs domestic/ 6hrs int'l or midnight, whichever is EARLIER.
8. 401k filled to 415c limits by the company.
9. Sick leave/ disability back to C2K.
10. Medical/Dental premiums/co-pays greatly reduced.
11. Eliminate agency shop...a line puke's only way to maintain a true check & balance on the union.
12. Stop signing NDAs...we are a public company...most information is readily availabe...NDAs promote the "trust me, I've got a secret, but I can't tell you" that greatly increases the mistrust from the line.
13. The union must stop accepting pay from the company...complete conflict of interest...I will gladly pay dues to cover our costs.
I am willing to massage these a "little", but not much.
Good luck to us all.
Now as far as the survey, from a 24yr 767 captain:
1. Significant reduction in scoped out flying, without it nothing else matters.
2. 40% day one. 5%/yr til next contract is signed.
3. 6hr/calendar day for all work events. i.e. fly, dh only day, suit up pay, layover only day, initial qual, cq, vacation day, everything is 6hr/calendar day!
4. 75hr guarantee reg/res.
5. Reg/res get paid the same on same rotation.
6. Return seniority to res. If it requires more pilots, so be it.
7. 23k goes to bottom of 23n & 23o coverage ladders. Also, must return within 4hrs domestic/ 6hrs int'l or midnight, whichever is EARLIER.
8. 401k filled to 415c limits by the company.
9. Sick leave/ disability back to C2K.
10. Medical/Dental premiums/co-pays greatly reduced.
11. Eliminate agency shop...a line puke's only way to maintain a true check & balance on the union.
12. Stop signing NDAs...we are a public company...most information is readily availabe...NDAs promote the "trust me, I've got a secret, but I can't tell you" that greatly increases the mistrust from the line.
13. The union must stop accepting pay from the company...complete conflict of interest...I will gladly pay dues to cover our costs.
I am willing to massage these a "little", but not much.
Good luck to us all.
Hopefully there are MANY more that are saying the same sort of thing. With the conversations I've had with the reps I have faith that they will ask for what we want. The only question is what does the majority of the pilot group ask for? I'd be very surprised to see anyone write in 10% on the survey.
10-25-2011, 09:35 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: blueJet
Posts: 4,534
10-25-2011, 09:39 AM
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 793
Question about CQ bidding:
When your CQ Golden Days show up on PBS calendar does that mean if you get a reserve line for that month you'll get those days off as Golden Days as well? Do you have to bid them on your monthly bid, or are they automatically assigned to a guy who gets a reserve line?
When your CQ Golden Days show up on PBS calendar does that mean if you get a reserve line for that month you'll get those days off as Golden Days as well? Do you have to bid them on your monthly bid, or are they automatically assigned to a guy who gets a reserve line?
10-25-2011, 09:59 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Sorry to butt into the Delta thread, but I'll make it quick. The $166,000 average salary that keeps getting quoted here is incorrect. The MIT website has made a gross error in their calculations. If you look at 2009, it says that average SWA pilot pay was $176,000 and dropped to $166,000 in 2010. That is simply not correct.
There seems to be an error in the total number of pilots at SWA. Their charts show a sudden jump of 5.2 crews per aircraft to 5.9 from 2009 to 2010. That number is not correct. MIT shows that SWA hired around 800 pilots in 2010, making their calculations wildly inaccurate. Actual number of pilots hired in 2010 was zero.
If you compare the total cockpit cost per block hour for narrowbody equipment, SWA cockpit cost per hour rose from $630 to $691. SWA's scheduling practices and contract did not change appreciably in 2010 other than a pay rate increase. To compare, Delta currently shows $552 total cost per hour for 2010.
Anyway, the $166,000 average salary figure is not correct. If you use the correct number of pilots, the average SWA salary is actually well above $186,000 per year. My past history of Delta bashing aside, that is the real info.
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2...0EQUIPMENT.htm
There seems to be an error in the total number of pilots at SWA. Their charts show a sudden jump of 5.2 crews per aircraft to 5.9 from 2009 to 2010. That number is not correct. MIT shows that SWA hired around 800 pilots in 2010, making their calculations wildly inaccurate. Actual number of pilots hired in 2010 was zero.
If you compare the total cockpit cost per block hour for narrowbody equipment, SWA cockpit cost per hour rose from $630 to $691. SWA's scheduling practices and contract did not change appreciably in 2010 other than a pay rate increase. To compare, Delta currently shows $552 total cost per hour for 2010.
Anyway, the $166,000 average salary figure is not correct. If you use the correct number of pilots, the average SWA salary is actually well above $186,000 per year. My past history of Delta bashing aside, that is the real info.
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2...0EQUIPMENT.htm
10-25-2011, 10:03 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Sorry to butt into the Delta thread, but I'll make it quick. The $166,000 average salary that keeps getting quoted here is incorrect. The MIT website has made a gross error in their calculations. If you look at 2009, it says that average SWA pilot pay was $176,000 and dropped to $166,000 in 2010. That is simply not correct.
There seems to be an error in the total number of pilots at SWA. Their charts show a sudden jump of 5.2 crews per aircraft to 5.9 from 2009 to 2010. That number is not correct. MIT shows that SWA hired around 800 pilots in 2010, making their calculations wildly inaccurate. Actual number of pilots hired in 2010 was zero.
If you compare the total cockpit cost per block hour for narrowbody equipment, SWA cockpit cost per hour rose from $630 to $691. SWA's scheduling practices and contract did not change appreciably in 2010 other than a pay rate increase. To compare, Delta currently shows $552 total cost per hour for 2010.
Anyway, the $166,000 average salary figure is not correct. If you use the correct number of pilots, the average SWA salary is actually well above $186,000 per year. My past history of Delta bashing aside, that is the real info.
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2...0EQUIPMENT.htm
There seems to be an error in the total number of pilots at SWA. Their charts show a sudden jump of 5.2 crews per aircraft to 5.9 from 2009 to 2010. That number is not correct. MIT shows that SWA hired around 800 pilots in 2010, making their calculations wildly inaccurate. Actual number of pilots hired in 2010 was zero.
If you compare the total cockpit cost per block hour for narrowbody equipment, SWA cockpit cost per hour rose from $630 to $691. SWA's scheduling practices and contract did not change appreciably in 2010 other than a pay rate increase. To compare, Delta currently shows $552 total cost per hour for 2010.
Anyway, the $166,000 average salary figure is not correct. If you use the correct number of pilots, the average SWA salary is actually well above $186,000 per year. My past history of Delta bashing aside, that is the real info.
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2...0EQUIPMENT.htm
______________________________________________
"Prior to accepting his research position at MIT, Swelbar spent 25 years in the consulting world with a focus on airline labor cost restructuring..."
______________________________________________
"If you torture the data long enough, it will confess." - Ronald Coase
10-25-2011, 10:48 AM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 57
I'm on Mil Leave, but still like reading these forums to keep up with whats going on at Delta. I appreciate the different opinions/perspectives people have shared regarding the contract survey. It helped me while filling my own survey out.
When I ask my friends at Delta if they filled out their survey, I get a variety of responses:
"It wont matter"
"Its a Captains union, so they'll just get what they want"
"I sent in my DPA card"
"I filled it out, but didnt understand what most of it meant"
"yeah, I should really do that"
"I got f&*^$% in the SLI" (Basically, the union wont take care of him anyways, so why do it)
"Im just going to see what happens"
These are all responses from different individuals. No one simply said "yes", or was excited about the prospect of a new and better contract. I am surprised that more people aren't engaged at the minimum level of just filling out an online form. Maybe its because i'm relatively new to Delta, but I think filling out the survey is important, even if you don't like the union, or have other issues.
Just my .02
When I ask my friends at Delta if they filled out their survey, I get a variety of responses:
"It wont matter"
"Its a Captains union, so they'll just get what they want"
"I sent in my DPA card"
"I filled it out, but didnt understand what most of it meant"
"yeah, I should really do that"
"I got f&*^$% in the SLI" (Basically, the union wont take care of him anyways, so why do it)
"Im just going to see what happens"
These are all responses from different individuals. No one simply said "yes", or was excited about the prospect of a new and better contract. I am surprised that more people aren't engaged at the minimum level of just filling out an online form. Maybe its because i'm relatively new to Delta, but I think filling out the survey is important, even if you don't like the union, or have other issues.
Just my .02
10-25-2011, 10:51 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 917
Does anyone know how to non-rev to Santiago or Lima? I have the highly sought after 1st week of December vacation block and was looking at warm destinations. I also saw something strange going to PPT (Polynesia). It shows a route to LAX, then a 777 with 0/0 capacity to PPT. ---Thanks
P.S. With my short attention span, the pin-up girls are what keep me coming back eCh morning with my coffee.
P.S. With my short attention span, the pin-up girls are what keep me coming back eCh morning with my coffee.
I'm sure there are direct flights out of ATL and possibly JFK to Santiago.
10-25-2011, 11:02 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Sorry to butt into the Delta thread, but I'll make it quick. The $166,000 average salary that keeps getting quoted here is incorrect. The MIT website has made a gross error in their calculations. If you look at 2009, it says that average SWA pilot pay was $176,000 and dropped to $166,000 in 2010. That is simply not correct.
There seems to be an error in the total number of pilots at SWA. Their charts show a sudden jump of 5.2 crews per aircraft to 5.9 from 2009 to 2010. That number is not correct. MIT shows that SWA hired around 800 pilots in 2010, making their calculations wildly inaccurate. Actual number of pilots hired in 2010 was zero.
If you compare the total cockpit cost per block hour for narrowbody equipment, SWA cockpit cost per hour rose from $630 to $691. SWA's scheduling practices and contract did not change appreciably in 2010 other than a pay rate increase. To compare, Delta currently shows $552 total cost per hour for 2010.
Anyway, the $166,000 average salary figure is not correct. If you use the correct number of pilots, the average SWA salary is actually well above $186,000 per year. My past history of Delta bashing aside, that is the real info.
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2...0EQUIPMENT.htm
There seems to be an error in the total number of pilots at SWA. Their charts show a sudden jump of 5.2 crews per aircraft to 5.9 from 2009 to 2010. That number is not correct. MIT shows that SWA hired around 800 pilots in 2010, making their calculations wildly inaccurate. Actual number of pilots hired in 2010 was zero.
If you compare the total cockpit cost per block hour for narrowbody equipment, SWA cockpit cost per hour rose from $630 to $691. SWA's scheduling practices and contract did not change appreciably in 2010 other than a pay rate increase. To compare, Delta currently shows $552 total cost per hour for 2010.
Anyway, the $166,000 average salary figure is not correct. If you use the correct number of pilots, the average SWA salary is actually well above $186,000 per year. My past history of Delta bashing aside, that is the real info.
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2...0EQUIPMENT.htm
Your constructive engagement is appreciated. Thanks for shining truth on the subject. Hope all is well.
10-25-2011, 11:03 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
Thanks, LuvJockey. I knew there was no way the average SWA pilot salary could be so low when the average F/O makes over $140K and the average Captain makes over $230K. The guy that heads up that MIT Airline Data Project sailingfun likes to quote, is hardly impartial. Here's a very interesting tidbit from his bio:
______________________________________________
"Prior to accepting his research position at MIT, Swelbar spent 25 years in the consulting world with a focus on airline labor cost restructuring..."
______________________________________________
"If you torture the data long enough, it will confess." - Ronald Coase
______________________________________________
"Prior to accepting his research position at MIT, Swelbar spent 25 years in the consulting world with a focus on airline labor cost restructuring..."
______________________________________________
"If you torture the data long enough, it will confess." - Ronald Coase
On the other hand I think Bill is right on in his latest OP:
The Ultimate Unintended Consequence: Government Proposals Will Kill Small Community AirService
BTW, select highlights from his CV (in case you can't tell he is not our "friend"):
In September 2006, Bill accepted a research appointment with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology’s International Center for Air Transportation following a consulting career began in 1984. Swelbar currently serves as a member of the Board of Directors of Hawaiian Holdings, Inc. In addition, Swelbar writes a widely read airline industry blog that can be found at Aviation Articles and Commentary - Swelblog / Swelbar on Airlines.
At MIT, Swelbar in conjunction with Gerassimos Tsoukalas and Dr. Peter Belobaba, published in the Journal of Air Transport Management a paper entitled: Cost Convergence in the US Airline Industry: An Analysis of Unit Costs 1996 - 2006. The topic maintains high interest today.
At MIT, Swelbar in conjunction with Alex Cosmas and Dr. Peter Belobaba, wrote a White Paper entitled:
Framing the Discussion on Regulatory Liberalization: A Stakeholder Analysis of Open Skies, Ownership and Control.
Alaska Airlines: Advised the airline on competitive issues facing it following significant cost reduction efforts at competitor airlines. The program provides an analysis of the “real time” and prospective impact on the carrier’s operations and workforce.
May 1999 Proposition RJ: An Alliance to Enhance Airline Competition. The industry’s first major study examining the impact of scope clause limitations on regional jet deployment. The research examined how scope clause limits put some carriers at a competitive disadvantage and restricted air service in some communities, helping to dispel the myth that regional jets destroyed jobs.
Cheers
George
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