Originally Posted by gloopy

Like I said, I'm not against nice perks for us. But we have a massive amount of work to do first. I see this as a potential emotional distraction. I'm pro pilot to the bone and have a thin skin for jealous entitlement mentalities from other groups, but this is one issue that if we paid for in negotiations, we would be paying to get it for everyone. If the company wants to make this a policy because they feel it will build goodwill and attract/retain talent and make for happier employees, great! Gordon Bethune used to buy new cars to give away to employees with perfect attendance. But he did it because he wanted to because he saw a ROI in doing so. The pilots didn't buy them for everyone.

I just thought it was odd that such a random third tier issue was embedded in lines of questioning that tried to get us to choose between scope and pay, retirement and work rules, etc. The survey was very much a "the pie is only so big so what do you want and what can you live without" and yet here is this interesting but extremely low priority issue.

Fix pay, scope, work rules and retirement and we could afford our own tickets...although if, after all that, the company still wanted to offer them as a perk, rock on!

Originally Posted by Scoop

Gloopy,

I disagree with you here. You do not value PS passes - OK no worries, but we have 12,000 Pilots that all have different priorities. I personally would love some PS vacation Passes. Why not ask for all of it? Why do positive space passes have to come at the expense of pay, work-rules, scope etc? And no, I am not willing to give up pay to get them - but some guys might.

Are they on top of my list? No, but personally they are currently more valuable to me then the DAL health care plan, commuting policies, and a bunch of other things that I don't use, and even though I don't currently use these items I do realize that they are far more important to the Pilot group as a whole.

Lets not disparage the things that we don't personally value but lets complete the survey - find out what most guys value - and then go after that.

And finally, screw the whole "Pie" analogy - we need a bigger pie!

Scoop

Originally Posted by flyallnite

I wanted to credit gloopy for shedding light on a very, very profound and disturbing reality. One that I intend to express directly to Mr Anderson if and when I am given the chance.

That for the typical pilot, family of four or five, to be able to purchase tickets to travel on Delta would very likely break the bank for most of us. How many of us (with families to support) have a couple of grand lying around any more?

Mr. Anderson et al: WE CAN'T AFFORD THE PRODUCT WE PRODUCE!

That is fundamentally wrong. Morally wrong. Our pay is not commensurate with our responsibilities, our sacrifices, nor our contribution to the bottom line. Time to pay us what we are WORTH, my friends.

Originally Posted by georgetg

Scoop, right on. I feel the same way.

I just had to burn 4 S2 passes for the family to go LAX OGG in the offseason...

I also agree with the tenant that nothing should be "given up" for this.



This really drives home the issue at the heart of everything:

SCOPE
PAY

tackle those and everything else is icing...
Because we don't want a slice of pie, we want to eat cake!

Cheers
George

Originally Posted by Superpilot92

Mmmmm cake!!!!

Originally Posted by shiznit

I hate it when the Dutch and the French take their right to privacy and get in the way of my year and a half away from now wish list....


Oh yeah, and the guys that I got to know and elected to directly represent me......I'll bet they will be sure to p!ss away that leverage and screw themselves and the other guys in my LEC with an inferior contract that they will have to live under.

Yeah, that for sure.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

That's the part you're missing. Many of these folks DO NOT have to live under the contract. They collect maximum pay plus stipends plus seeing their families every night and sleeping in their own beds.

Not actually having to work under our conditions is part of the problem.

Carl

Originally Posted by CVG767A

We frequently see guys on this board decrying career ALPA politicians. Now we have an MEC chairman who would rather be on the line, but sees work that needs to be done by "someone", and actually steps up to the plate to do it.

Originally Posted by CVG767A

Wouldn't it just be easier to sit at the computer and complain about the MEC's direction or the pace of negotiations?

Originally Posted by CVG767A

My hat's off to Tim for taking on the responsibility.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

That's the part you're missing. Many of these folks DO NOT have to live under the contract. They collect maximum pay plus stipends plus seeing their families every night and sleeping in their own beds.

Not actually having to work under our conditions is part of the problem.

Carl

Originally Posted by UncleSam

Are you sure that the rates are quoted in Euros? The Additional Duty period/Per Diem category below the monthly rate is shown in $. I think Rishworth uses $ throughout since many of the folks searching there are US citizens.

Originally Posted by CVG767A

Or why not be honest with the people you're representing?

To me, he seems to be acting in an honest and forthright manner, and is doing exactly what we've been asking for. We want someone who will listen to us, and base the MEC's direction on that input. We're six months away from exchanging openers, and guys are ready to crucify him already.