Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
10-14-2011, 09:05 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 737A
Posts: 1,890
10-14-2011, 09:07 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
That someone that told you didn't understand the answer as I heard it.
The NC chair said there would be a negotiator's notepad coming out that will provide an apples to apples comparison of the public portions of the AF and KLM contracts. That includes pay. He commented that unlike the US, the European CLA's were private documents and that he would have to send the notepad for their review. He also said their workrules were similar to ours, but their pay structure was completely different (KLM salaried and AF a mix of salary and hourly). He did point out that the French get 48 days of vacation mandated by French law, so it's not something that's in their contract. I'd sure like that piece here.
The NC chair said there would be a negotiator's notepad coming out that will provide an apples to apples comparison of the public portions of the AF and KLM contracts. That includes pay. He commented that unlike the US, the European CLA's were private documents and that he would have to send the notepad for their review. He also said their workrules were similar to ours, but their pay structure was completely different (KLM salaried and AF a mix of salary and hourly). He did point out that the French get 48 days of vacation mandated by French law, so it's not something that's in their contract. I'd sure like that piece here.
10-14-2011, 09:17 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Bar, like you I still think that ALPA is the best solution going forward however being at the meeting I have lost confidence that we will get a contract anywhere near where I would like.
I also take issue with this being a democratic organization. Other than voting for your LEC reps and MEMRAT DALPA functions much more like a representative republic and I think that is the way it should function if I am honest. (We don't need THIS.) This is why I ask very specific question of LEC candidates when they run for office. I want to know their feelings on issues because while they may take input from the membership I believe that ultimately they will make decisions that they feel are best for Delta pilots based on their own underlying feelings and beliefs.
In practice this is what I have observed. Look at the action on Compass and the implementation or lack of it of the NW LOAs regarding outsourced flying or even the increase in permitted aircraft that was signed before the pilots even knew there was an issue. There was no effort to get the will of the pilots on these issues and I disagree with the way all of them went down but all I can really do is cast my vote for people who I feel share like goals of mine however those pilots aren't always elected.
WRT the meeting yesterday I really get the feeling that if we (the pilot group) want the moon in this contact that DALPA will decide if that is in our best interest or not. I may be surprised but after yesterday I am not feeling charged up about the upcoming contract.
I will echo what many said yesterday, we need leadership. DALPA is severely lacking in leadership right now IMO. TO stated that he is no more important that anyone else in the room WRT his opinions on the contract. That may sound nice but is wrong. If our chairman is not of the mindset of making big improvements to Scope, Work Rules, Pay, etc. than how is he going to motivate the pilots he represents or clearly direct the negotiating committee.
It may still be early to "get the troops riled up" but we need a strong leader like a FDR or Churchill to start uniting us. Anyway the message I got from the meeting was the industry has changed and will not be the same going forward and if what you pilots want is too much we can try that but we will never get anywhere doing that but if we shoot lower we can probably get a quick contract.
If the pilots didn't have MEMRAT for the contract I have a feeling that we would be presented with would be laughable. I hope I'm wrong.
-vpr
I also take issue with this being a democratic organization. Other than voting for your LEC reps and MEMRAT DALPA functions much more like a representative republic and I think that is the way it should function if I am honest. (We don't need THIS.) This is why I ask very specific question of LEC candidates when they run for office. I want to know their feelings on issues because while they may take input from the membership I believe that ultimately they will make decisions that they feel are best for Delta pilots based on their own underlying feelings and beliefs.
In practice this is what I have observed. Look at the action on Compass and the implementation or lack of it of the NW LOAs regarding outsourced flying or even the increase in permitted aircraft that was signed before the pilots even knew there was an issue. There was no effort to get the will of the pilots on these issues and I disagree with the way all of them went down but all I can really do is cast my vote for people who I feel share like goals of mine however those pilots aren't always elected.
WRT the meeting yesterday I really get the feeling that if we (the pilot group) want the moon in this contact that DALPA will decide if that is in our best interest or not. I may be surprised but after yesterday I am not feeling charged up about the upcoming contract.
I will echo what many said yesterday, we need leadership. DALPA is severely lacking in leadership right now IMO. TO stated that he is no more important that anyone else in the room WRT his opinions on the contract. That may sound nice but is wrong. If our chairman is not of the mindset of making big improvements to Scope, Work Rules, Pay, etc. than how is he going to motivate the pilots he represents or clearly direct the negotiating committee.
It may still be early to "get the troops riled up" but we need a strong leader like a FDR or Churchill to start uniting us. Anyway the message I got from the meeting was the industry has changed and will not be the same going forward and if what you pilots want is too much we can try that but we will never get anywhere doing that but if we shoot lower we can probably get a quick contract.
If the pilots didn't have MEMRAT for the contract I have a feeling that we would be presented with would be laughable. I hope I'm wrong.
-vpr
IF you feel your elected leadership(Reps) or the admin is not going to get you the contract you want, there is still time to force the issue with your reps. If you feel they will not change their course, recall em, then if you are successful with that, your newly elected reps can go for changes at the head table and committee ranks.
If everyone sits on their hands, there really can be no complaining about the results.
10-14-2011, 09:17 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: Decoupled
Posts: 922
Personal Responsiblity
What can you do to insure that we have success in the next contract?
First, you can beat the drum about completing the survey. Ask everyone you encounter if they know about it and have they completed it?
Second, become an expert on how Section 6 negotiations work. If this is your first rodeo, you have some reading to do. Section 6 negotiations can be extremely frustrating if you have never been through it before. It's important to understand what DALPA can do and not do. It's even more important for you to understand what you can and cannot do. Everything is about the status quo. Learn what that means and how it can affect you. Knowledge is power. Empower yourself.
Third, take personal responsibility with your financial perparedness. Now is the time to pay down your debt. Do not plan on buying a new car or a bigger house any time soon. Do not plan on assuming any new financial obligations. Pay down debt. Get liquid. Start saving some money. That way you can go into this effort from a position of power and not weakness. Once Section 6 starts, DALPA will be restricted in what they can say about this. That is why you must assume responsibility for your financial health.
Last, make sure your significant other has been educated in all the possibilities. The last thing you need is pressure from the home front. An educated, supportive spouse will be a huge asset. You are going to need a partner.
Now, if anyone has any other ideas, this is the time to start talking about them, here, at home and at work. It's not time to inflate the rat, but it is time to start your personal preparations.
First, you can beat the drum about completing the survey. Ask everyone you encounter if they know about it and have they completed it?
Second, become an expert on how Section 6 negotiations work. If this is your first rodeo, you have some reading to do. Section 6 negotiations can be extremely frustrating if you have never been through it before. It's important to understand what DALPA can do and not do. It's even more important for you to understand what you can and cannot do. Everything is about the status quo. Learn what that means and how it can affect you. Knowledge is power. Empower yourself.
Third, take personal responsibility with your financial perparedness. Now is the time to pay down your debt. Do not plan on buying a new car or a bigger house any time soon. Do not plan on assuming any new financial obligations. Pay down debt. Get liquid. Start saving some money. That way you can go into this effort from a position of power and not weakness. Once Section 6 starts, DALPA will be restricted in what they can say about this. That is why you must assume responsibility for your financial health.
Last, make sure your significant other has been educated in all the possibilities. The last thing you need is pressure from the home front. An educated, supportive spouse will be a huge asset. You are going to need a partner.
Now, if anyone has any other ideas, this is the time to start talking about them, here, at home and at work. It's not time to inflate the rat, but it is time to start your personal preparations.
10-14-2011, 09:23 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
Bar,
Step back and listen to what you're saying and how it comes across.
You say we gained "significant interim gains during the merger process." Well, that could be a true statement, depending on your definition of "significant."
So, can we expect similar "significant" gains with C2012? See, that's the way you talk and that's the way this administration and it's fans talk. And it all sounds really great... until you look at the numbers. Or put another way, the kind of "significant gains" we got during the merger process would be an unmitigated disaster if that's all we get with C2012. Do you see the problem?
Step back and listen to what you're saying and how it comes across.
You say we gained "significant interim gains during the merger process." Well, that could be a true statement, depending on your definition of "significant."
So, can we expect similar "significant" gains with C2012? See, that's the way you talk and that's the way this administration and it's fans talk. And it all sounds really great... until you look at the numbers. Or put another way, the kind of "significant gains" we got during the merger process would be an unmitigated disaster if that's all we get with C2012. Do you see the problem?
We could get a 5/5/5/5/5 contract with some minor work rule improvements and little to no scope improvements and it could (and would?) be "sold" to us as a "28% raise over the life of..." when in fact it would be a zero percent raise (or a pay cut on top of our already bankruptcy emergency survival contract if inflation picks up).
This time we have some checks and balances though, ironically from the Ford/Cooksley lawsuit. Meet and confer MUST happen if we want to tighten our DCI scope. I really doubt that can be complied with and kept completely secret from the membership (which that alone would be scandalous enough).
Look for the meet and confers, or lack of them, and especially what was said. If they are anything less than completely open about those meetings, their intent on the continued gutting of our profession through massive outsourcing will be revealed.
10-14-2011, 09:24 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
What can you do to insure that we have success in the next contract?
First, you can beat the drum about completing the survey. Ask everyone you encounter if they know about it and have they completed it?
Second, become an expert on how Section 6 negotiations work. If this is your first rodeo, you have some reading to do. Section 6 negotiations can be extremely frustrating if you have never been through it before. It's important to understand what DALPA can do and not do. It's even more important for you to understand what you can and cannot do. Everything is about the status quo. Learn what that means and how it can affect you. Knowledge is power. Empower yourself.
Third, take personal responsibility with your financial perparedness. Now is the time to pay down your debt. Do not plan on buying a new car or a bigger house any time soon. Do not plan on assuming any new financial obligations. Pay down debt. Get liquid. Start saving some money. That way you can go into this effort from a position of power and not weakness. Once Section 6 starts, DALPA will be restricted in what they can say about this. That is why you must assume responsibility for your financial health.
Last, make sure your significant other has been educated in all the possibilities. The last thing you need is pressure from the home front. An educated, supportive spouse will be a huge asset. You are going to need a partner.
Now, if anyone has any other ideas, this is the time to start talking about them, here, at home and at work. It's not time to inflate the rat, but it is time to start your personal preparations.
First, you can beat the drum about completing the survey. Ask everyone you encounter if they know about it and have they completed it?
Second, become an expert on how Section 6 negotiations work. If this is your first rodeo, you have some reading to do. Section 6 negotiations can be extremely frustrating if you have never been through it before. It's important to understand what DALPA can do and not do. It's even more important for you to understand what you can and cannot do. Everything is about the status quo. Learn what that means and how it can affect you. Knowledge is power. Empower yourself.
Third, take personal responsibility with your financial perparedness. Now is the time to pay down your debt. Do not plan on buying a new car or a bigger house any time soon. Do not plan on assuming any new financial obligations. Pay down debt. Get liquid. Start saving some money. That way you can go into this effort from a position of power and not weakness. Once Section 6 starts, DALPA will be restricted in what they can say about this. That is why you must assume responsibility for your financial health.
Last, make sure your significant other has been educated in all the possibilities. The last thing you need is pressure from the home front. An educated, supportive spouse will be a huge asset. You are going to need a partner.
Now, if anyone has any other ideas, this is the time to start talking about them, here, at home and at work. It's not time to inflate the rat, but it is time to start your personal preparations.
I agree 100% and have been preparing for two years.
Of note, a lot of pilots I come in contact with really do not think that ALPA will take the fight to the highest levels afforded to them under section 6, and for us to be successful and for ALPA to be successful, that needs to change. It starts with DALPA showing the pilots that they got their back.
10-14-2011, 09:33 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Ok boys, lets get back to something REALLY important.
Was in ATL for 3 days earlier in the week doing queep at the school house. Good news for you younger guys......there were NEW HIRE Flight Attendants roaming the halls and taking computer tests.
Like I said. Hummmmmmmm
Was in ATL for 3 days earlier in the week doing queep at the school house. Good news for you younger guys......there were NEW HIRE Flight Attendants roaming the halls and taking computer tests.
Like I said. Hummmmmmmm
She mostly just does the Prague trips so I apologized to her for having to fly the MD-88.
You could watch the heads turn as she passed people.
10-14-2011, 09:47 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
My point is that WHO CARES what the "net takehome" is!
What is the COST to the Corporation per pilot? If an AF/KL pilot pays more taxes, it doesn't affect the corporation ANY differently!
Since we are in a JV, all the costs and revenues are shared.
This means when DAL per pilot gross costs are lower than the per pilot gross cost of AF/KL pilots, DAL pilots are subsidizing AF/KL pilot pay!
I want to see that eliminated.
Per pilot cost is the metric the company needs to consider, and taxes taken from that are a function of government, and the burden of the individuals who live in that nation.
What is the COST to the Corporation per pilot? If an AF/KL pilot pays more taxes, it doesn't affect the corporation ANY differently!
Since we are in a JV, all the costs and revenues are shared.
This means when DAL per pilot gross costs are lower than the per pilot gross cost of AF/KL pilots, DAL pilots are subsidizing AF/KL pilot pay!
I want to see that eliminated.
Per pilot cost is the metric the company needs to consider, and taxes taken from that are a function of government, and the burden of the individuals who live in that nation.
When it comes to airline accounting just about everything is on a seat mile/passenger mile basis.
ASM = capacity (available seat miles)
RPM = traffic (revenue passenger miles)
CASM = unit cost (cost per available seat miles)
RASM = revenue (revenue per available seat miles)
PRASM = passenger revenue (passenger revenue per available seat miles)
So when we set out to compare cost, we need to look at it from a CASM standpoint.
Pilot portion of CASM is the true cost of Delta pilots.
Have you seen this number published, have you heard it quoted at roadshows?
The closest thing we can get is to go to MIT and use numbers supplied by the DOT.
Total ASMs Produced per Dollar of Total Pilot Compensation
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2...mpensation.htm
Two comments:
Training events take pilots offline. That means that pilot not making revenue flights is creating zero ASMs.
Reducing capacity means fewer ASMs to defray pilot cost.
The bottom line is both of those factors will increase pilot cost and the data bears that out.
For the real sticklers out there:
Since the AFKLM/AZ JV is using the metric system, they use Seat Kilometers.
That's why our Contract uses EASK as the metric to compare flying performed by joint venture partners.
EASK = capacity (equivalent available seat kilometers adjusted to include cargo)
Back to your premise Shiznit:
We need the pilot portion of CASK for Delta and AFKLM/AZ
then we just compare
I think where you will have a hard time is determining exactly what the pilot portion of CASK is for the thee companies that make up AFKLM/AZ.
In terms of us pilots, its fair to compare compensation after taxes, in the end thats what makes the difference between a caddilac/citroën/spyker lifestyle and a donkey cart.
The Europeans pay a lot more in taxes and get more benefits in return in terms of healthcare, retirement.
In turn their vacation cost is born by the corporation, whereas here anybody under 10 years service mostly pays for it out of pocket.
To be honest, I'd like to just concentrate on working with the company, how about we:
Reduce the training footprint by reducing the amount of base swaps.
Reducing codeshare and DCI flying and increasing mainline capacity in kind.
In turn we take all those savings and pay them out to the pilots by improving the contract.
Cheers
George
10-14-2011, 09:50 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
I can attest to this. I had a tall should-be-a-model new hire FA from Czechoslovakia the other day. Actually, she looked a lot like Heidi Klum. A lot.
She mostly just does the Prague trips so I apologized to her for having to fly the MD-88.
You could watch the heads turn as she passed people.
She mostly just does the Prague trips so I apologized to her for having to fly the MD-88.
You could watch the heads turn as she passed people.
I'll miss the Tokyo girls, PEK not so much.
Ferd
10-14-2011, 09:53 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
See above post.
The metric to use is Pilot portion of CASM/CASK.
Your hypothetic Frenchman/Dutch/Italian better fly an a380 on that one day to produce as many Seat Kilometers as possible.
Cheers
George
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
