Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
10-05-2011, 04:36 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
10-05-2011, 04:51 PM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Thanks for posting that 88, but you are preaching to the choir over here. Until ALPA puts it out officially, many of our co-workers will think it is the DPA huffing and puffing. Until someone with cojones does a *.* to all delta pilots, malingering whiners like you and me will be just left with our uninformed complaining position. 
We know DALPA is managements communication arm, we get it. Its the 70% that doesnt that you and me have to convince.
We know DALPA is managements communication arm, we get it. Its the 70% that doesnt that you and me have to convince.
10-05-2011, 04:51 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B-7ER JFK
Posts: 931
10-05-2011, 05:06 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
B) I mean I am not smoking just anything.
It's Labrador btw.
C) see highlighted in bold to answer why it was $100K...
Another question, we never really put pay demands in terms of actual annual salary. We play the % game and let the pilot figure it out.
But here is my best estimation of our seniority by category, as we all know 12 years tops it off. But you can look at the FedEx/SWA equivalent aircraft and get a feel of where seniority is and there is my question - what should the average FedEx/SWA equivalent pilot be able to afford comfortably?
For instance and I'm going to go low ball here just to not persuade the answer:
MD88 B should be able to afford a $100K house, 1 used $10K car every 10 years, 2 kids but no college fund, spouse doesn't have to work.
MD88 A should be 40% better.
That's my low ball. Hopefully you get the point, but should the average be $70K a year? Or $130K a year? Determined by what they can afford.
But here is my best estimation of our seniority by category, as we all know 12 years tops it off. But you can look at the FedEx/SWA equivalent aircraft and get a feel of where seniority is and there is my question - what should the average FedEx/SWA equivalent pilot be able to afford comfortably?
For instance and I'm going to go low ball here just to not persuade the answer:
MD88 B should be able to afford a $100K house, 1 used $10K car every 10 years, 2 kids but no college fund, spouse doesn't have to work.
MD88 A should be 40% better.
That's my low ball. Hopefully you get the point, but should the average be $70K a year? Or $130K a year? Determined by what they can afford.
FtB:
Given this is not the First Rodeo for any aviator, I will submit that a FO on the lowest paying jet in yr three plus of longevity should be able to afford a typical middle class house; 250K, two newer cars with payments of about 400 each, schooling for their children, a college fund, able to put the max per year in their 401K and be able to do everything that a typical manager mid-upper level at a normal corporation should be able to do. That equates to 140-155K a year. It also should go up significantly from there.
Most pilots DAL has hired in the last five years have been doing the military for 10+ years and or the civilian world for 7-15 years. The bulk of pilots hired would be mid to upper level managers on a different career track at a min.
I continue to purport that to attract the best you have to pay em like you respect em.
The idea of a pilots in his mid 40's sitting reserve on the 7ER or 330 making 6K a month with kids going to college is preposterous. That pilot has been doing this job for 20+ years and should be paid in kind. Same goes for the 7ERA that sits reserve and makes 155K gross a year and is in his mid to late 50's.
Given this is not the First Rodeo for any aviator, I will submit that a FO on the lowest paying jet in yr three plus of longevity should be able to afford a typical middle class house; 250K, two newer cars with payments of about 400 each, schooling for their children, a college fund, able to put the max per year in their 401K and be able to do everything that a typical manager mid-upper level at a normal corporation should be able to do. That equates to 140-155K a year. It also should go up significantly from there.
Most pilots DAL has hired in the last five years have been doing the military for 10+ years and or the civilian world for 7-15 years. The bulk of pilots hired would be mid to upper level managers on a different career track at a min.
I continue to purport that to attract the best you have to pay em like you respect em.
The idea of a pilots in his mid 40's sitting reserve on the 7ER or 330 making 6K a month with kids going to college is preposterous. That pilot has been doing this job for 20+ years and should be paid in kind. Same goes for the 7ERA that sits reserve and makes 155K gross a year and is in his mid to late 50's.
Personally. Band NB together, the average B pilot and I'm going to say a 6 year pilot (halfway to max longevity), should be able to afford a mortgage on a $350K house with 20% down, a typical 6% fixed rate 15 year mortgage (aiming high) being no more than 30% of the pilots post tax budget.
Given tax rates, I believe that puts said pilot right at $130,000.
If we figure a 75 hour cap, you're looking at $145/hr.
Figure FO's make 35% less than Captains then you're looking at $222/hr for a Captain or $270ish if you interpolate the numbers out to a 12 year Captain rate. Seems high but there is a cap and bow wave being figured in. That's my $.02.
10-05-2011, 05:15 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: DAL Pilot
Posts: 1,133
Personally. Band NB together, the average B pilot and I'm going to say a 6 year pilot (halfway to max longevity), should be able to afford a mortgage on a $350K house with 20% down, a typical 6% fixed rate 15 year mortgage (aiming high) being no more than 30% of the pilots post tax budget.
Given tax rates, I believe that puts said pilot right at $130,000.
If we figure a 75 hour cap, you're looking at $145/hr. Figure FO's make 35% less than Captains then you're looking at $222/hr for a Captain or $270ish if you interpolate the numbers out to a 12 year Captain rate. Seems high but there is a cap and bow wave being figured in.
That's my $.02.
Given tax rates, I believe that puts said pilot right at $130,000.
If we figure a 75 hour cap, you're looking at $145/hr.
Figure FO's make 35% less than Captains then you're looking at $222/hr for a Captain or $270ish if you interpolate the numbers out to a 12 year Captain rate. Seems high but there is a cap and bow wave being figured in. That's my $.02.
10-05-2011, 05:25 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
10-05-2011, 05:26 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
A) I am not smoking anything.
B) I mean I am not smoking just anything.
It's Labrador btw.
C) see highlighted in bold to answer why it was $100K...
Personally. Band NB together, the average B pilot and I'm going to say a 6 year pilot (halfway to max longevity), should be able to afford a mortgage on a $350K house with 20% down, a typical 6% fixed rate 15 year mortgage (aiming high) being no more than 30% of the pilots post tax budget.
Given tax rates, I believe that puts said pilot right at $130,000.
If we figure a 75 hour cap, you're looking at $145/hr. Figure FO's make 35% less than Captains then you're looking at $222/hr for a Captain or $270ish if you interpolate the numbers out to a 12 year Captain rate. Seems high but there is a cap and bow wave being figured in.
That's my $.02.
B) I mean I am not smoking just anything.
It's Labrador btw.
C) see highlighted in bold to answer why it was $100K...
Personally. Band NB together, the average B pilot and I'm going to say a 6 year pilot (halfway to max longevity), should be able to afford a mortgage on a $350K house with 20% down, a typical 6% fixed rate 15 year mortgage (aiming high) being no more than 30% of the pilots post tax budget.
Given tax rates, I believe that puts said pilot right at $130,000.
If we figure a 75 hour cap, you're looking at $145/hr.
Figure FO's make 35% less than Captains then you're looking at $222/hr for a Captain or $270ish if you interpolate the numbers out to a 12 year Captain rate. Seems high but there is a cap and bow wave being figured in. That's my $.02.
FTB and all other junior DAL pilots.
When I was a narrowbody FO, I had 3 years in a row of 160-170 K per year. That was years 3-6. I did not kill myself to make that, I wasnt super junior and I did get occasional greenslips.
Then I went to the 76-4 - didn't take a paycut and worked a lot less (I was almost the plug). Again $165K/year.
Then the bad times hit and we all know the rest of the story. I haven't been close to those paydays since back then. Not close...do not sell yourselves short.
10-05-2011, 05:38 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
So do I and that is why I mentioned it.
I know you would love for me to do that. Our best asset is our pilots and their willingness to not compromise. Done enough of that. As for the card, show me something that will truly be better than what we have, and how it will not harm our pilots in this contract cycle.
I agree, and remember you and I are discussing NB rates, not WB rates.
Also, on a mid term extension. It would have to be significant not just pay, put improvements. Most importantly though, I would never vote for anything that did not have a guaranteed timetable for active back and forth negotiations 12 months before an amendable date, mediation on the amendable date, and at least a 5% bump every nine months that the contacts is still not resolved. Put teeth in the agreement that behooves active negotiations.
As with everything, the devil is in the details.
A) I am not smoking anything.
B) I mean I am not smoking just anything.
It's Labrador btw.
C) see highlighted in bold to answer why it was $100K...
Personally. Band NB together, the average B pilot and I'm going to say a 6 year pilot (halfway to max longevity), should be able to afford a mortgage on a $350K house with 20% down, a typical 6% fixed rate 15 year mortgage (aiming high) being no more than 30% of the pilots post tax budget.
Given tax rates, I believe that puts said pilot right at $130,000.
If we figure a 75 hour cap, you're looking at $145/hr. Figure FO's make 35% less than Captains then you're looking at $222/hr for a Captain or $270ish if you interpolate the numbers out to a 12 year Captain rate. Seems high but there is a cap and bow wave being figured in.
That's my $.02.
B) I mean I am not smoking just anything.
It's Labrador btw.
C) see highlighted in bold to answer why it was $100K...
Personally. Band NB together, the average B pilot and I'm going to say a 6 year pilot (halfway to max longevity), should be able to afford a mortgage on a $350K house with 20% down, a typical 6% fixed rate 15 year mortgage (aiming high) being no more than 30% of the pilots post tax budget.
Given tax rates, I believe that puts said pilot right at $130,000.
If we figure a 75 hour cap, you're looking at $145/hr.
Figure FO's make 35% less than Captains then you're looking at $222/hr for a Captain or $270ish if you interpolate the numbers out to a 12 year Captain rate. Seems high but there is a cap and bow wave being figured in. That's my $.02.
I agree, and remember you and I are discussing NB rates, not WB rates.
Also, on a mid term extension. It would have to be significant not just pay, put improvements. Most importantly though, I would never vote for anything that did not have a guaranteed timetable for active back and forth negotiations 12 months before an amendable date, mediation on the amendable date, and at least a 5% bump every nine months that the contacts is still not resolved. Put teeth in the agreement that behooves active negotiations.
As with everything, the devil is in the details.
10-05-2011, 05:38 PM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
FTB and all other junior DAL pilots.
When I was a narrowbody FO, I had 3 years in a row of 160-170 K per year. That was years 3-6. I did not kill myself to make that, I wasnt super junior and I did get occasional greenslips.
Then I went to the 76-4 - didn't take a paycut and worked a lot less (I was almost the plug). Again $165K/year.
Then the bad times hit and we all know the rest of the story. I haven't been close to those paydays since back then. Not close...do not sell yourselves short.
When I was a narrowbody FO, I had 3 years in a row of 160-170 K per year. That was years 3-6. I did not kill myself to make that, I wasnt super junior and I did get occasional greenslips.
Then I went to the 76-4 - didn't take a paycut and worked a lot less (I was almost the plug). Again $165K/year.
Then the bad times hit and we all know the rest of the story. I haven't been close to those paydays since back then. Not close...do not sell yourselves short.
10-05-2011, 05:40 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
FTB and all other junior DAL pilots.
When I was a narrowbody FO, I had 3 years in a row of 160-170 K per year. That was years 3-6. I did not kill myself to make that, I wasnt super junior and I did get occasional greenslips.
Then I went to the 76-4 - didn't take a paycut and worked a lot less (I was almost the plug). Again $165K/year.
Then the bad times hit and we all know the rest of the story. I haven't been close to those paydays since back then. Not close...do not sell yourselves short.
When I was a narrowbody FO, I had 3 years in a row of 160-170 K per year. That was years 3-6. I did not kill myself to make that, I wasnt super junior and I did get occasional greenslips.
Then I went to the 76-4 - didn't take a paycut and worked a lot less (I was almost the plug). Again $165K/year.
Then the bad times hit and we all know the rest of the story. I haven't been close to those paydays since back then. Not close...do not sell yourselves short.
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