Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-28-2011, 10:35 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
Alright you super fantastic sexy scope gurus.
I am stuck on question 13 "the list" please break down how you numbered and why PLEASE!
Here is the list and it is not in a priority order, just as it was listed in the survey
Amount of flying done by DCI carriers (e.g. Compass, Comair, etc.)
Successorship/Merger with another carrier
Fragmentation/Transfer of Assets
Change of Control
Cabotage
Alter Ego
Subcontracting
Bankruptcy 1113 Protection
Foreign Ownership
I am stuck on question 13 "the list" please break down how you numbered and why PLEASE!
Here is the list and it is not in a priority order, just as it was listed in the survey
Amount of flying done by DCI carriers (e.g. Compass, Comair, etc.)
Successorship/Merger with another carrier
Fragmentation/Transfer of Assets
Change of Control
Cabotage
Alter Ego
Subcontracting
Bankruptcy 1113 Protection
Foreign Ownership
09-28-2011, 10:46 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Sailing,
This is a disturbing post. If this is the reality of the situation, why even bother with surveys, openers, or negotiations at all? If this is how it is, it seems we are lucky just to even have the company talk to us. You make it seem like we have to beg the company to have discussions and if we ask for too much, they will take that privilege away. Really? How do you know? I thought this was a new Delta management team.
Look. I like Delta. I want Delta to succeed. I want Delta to make a lot of money. I want Delta to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world. I think, because we are all proud individuals, we all want to work for the best airline in the world.
But, come on -- It has got to be a two way street. Delta has got to want its pilots to succeed. Not, just at getting airplanes from point A to B, but outside of work, too. They have got to know that employing some of the most conscientious, professional, type A, results oriented, pilots in the industry should and does come at a cost. They have got to know that the more pilots they have that have side businesses and second careers, and aspirations to work somewhere else, only hurts them. They have got to know that to get to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world, they have got to be the airline of choice for every pilot in the world. Especially, since they rely so heavily on pilots to make the operation go.
The suggestion that if we merely ask for "the huge opener" it will result in the company walking away from negotiations for 14 months, indicates that you think the company doesn't respect us -- that you think the company will choose to punish us in this way as if we are a bunch of 3 year olds. It even suggests that you believe the company will behave in a childish fashion and take their ball and go home, if they don't like what they hear, which I don't believe. But, if this is the case, let the opener at least reveal that we are self-respecting adults. If the company wants to play games, we will at least know what we are dealing with from the beginning, instead of the end.
Seriously, in my opinion, I would think the company would have less respect for us if we don't ask for the huge opener. What type of person doesn't ask to be paid the same as his highest peer is paid? What type of person is threatened or intimidated to even ask?
To be honest with you, I don't think the opener has anything to do with being happy or unhappy. I don't even think it as to do with what the rational or irrational pilot thinks, either. This opener has everything to do with respect.
I think we should respect ourselves enough to ask for what we want -- for what we see our highest peers making, plus some-- then have the confidence that the company will respect us enough to go from there.
New K Now
(Sorry for the length.)
This is a disturbing post. If this is the reality of the situation, why even bother with surveys, openers, or negotiations at all? If this is how it is, it seems we are lucky just to even have the company talk to us. You make it seem like we have to beg the company to have discussions and if we ask for too much, they will take that privilege away. Really? How do you know? I thought this was a new Delta management team.
Look. I like Delta. I want Delta to succeed. I want Delta to make a lot of money. I want Delta to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world. I think, because we are all proud individuals, we all want to work for the best airline in the world.
But, come on -- It has got to be a two way street. Delta has got to want its pilots to succeed. Not, just at getting airplanes from point A to B, but outside of work, too. They have got to know that employing some of the most conscientious, professional, type A, results oriented, pilots in the industry should and does come at a cost. They have got to know that the more pilots they have that have side businesses and second careers, and aspirations to work somewhere else, only hurts them. They have got to know that to get to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world, they have got to be the airline of choice for every pilot in the world. Especially, since they rely so heavily on pilots to make the operation go.
The suggestion that if we merely ask for "the huge opener" it will result in the company walking away from negotiations for 14 months, indicates that you think the company doesn't respect us -- that you think the company will choose to punish us in this way as if we are a bunch of 3 year olds. It even suggests that you believe the company will behave in a childish fashion and take their ball and go home, if they don't like what they hear, which I don't believe. But, if this is the case, let the opener at least reveal that we are self-respecting adults. If the company wants to play games, we will at least know what we are dealing with from the beginning, instead of the end.
Seriously, in my opinion, I would think the company would have less respect for us if we don't ask for the huge opener. What type of person doesn't ask to be paid the same as his highest peer is paid? What type of person is threatened or intimidated to even ask?
To be honest with you, I don't think the opener has anything to do with being happy or unhappy. I don't even think it as to do with what the rational or irrational pilot thinks, either. This opener has everything to do with respect.
I think we should respect ourselves enough to ask for what we want -- for what we see our highest peers making, plus some-- then have the confidence that the company will respect us enough to go from there.
New K Now
(Sorry for the length.)
To tie in with another post about the "what are you willing to give up to get that" mentality at DALPA. I saw a clear example of that earlier this year when I had a lengthy email exchange with the ATL LEC Chairman. We were discussing the idea of approaching the company for a mid-contract partial pay restoration to bring us to W2 parity with SWA. He didn't like the idea of doing that because he said that getting SWA pay would mean the company would require us to concede SWA productivity... and that would result in a large number of furloughs and backwards movement throughout the company. It was a clear example of a "what are you willing to give up to get that" mentality. I have seen nothing to date that makes me think this kind of thing is not the predominant thinking in our MEC. Sailingfun, who seems to be in lock step with the MEC on just about everything, has provided us yet another example. Very disappointing.
09-28-2011, 10:47 AM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: Stuck in the north!
Posts: 75
09-28-2011, 10:47 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
Alright you super fantastic sexy scope gurus.
I am stuck on question 13 "the list" please break down how you numbered and why PLEASE!
Here is the list and it is not in a priority order, just as it was listed in the survey
Amount of flying done by DCI carriers (e.g. Compass, Comair, etc.)
Successorship/Merger with another carrier
Fragmentation/Transfer of Assets
Change of Control
Cabotage
Alter Ego
Subcontracting
Bankruptcy 1113 Protection
Foreign Ownership
I am stuck on question 13 "the list" please break down how you numbered and why PLEASE!
Here is the list and it is not in a priority order, just as it was listed in the survey
Amount of flying done by DCI carriers (e.g. Compass, Comair, etc.)
Successorship/Merger with another carrier
Fragmentation/Transfer of Assets
Change of Control
Cabotage
Alter Ego
Subcontracting
Bankruptcy 1113 Protection
Foreign Ownership
I was going to put subcontracting as number 1, because it is so general. But I didn't like leaving DCI anywhere but number 1. DCI is subcontracting, and it is, by far, our largest and most dammaging subcontracting. 40-50% of our block hours and a similar percentage of our pilot jobs.
Alter Ego is a holding company scope issue and we already have that, with only DCI being the outstanding issue to be resolved.
Bankruptcy protection is sort of a nebulous construct because you can't really ever have that, especially us as labor. I ranked that low only because why waste point weighting on something that would likely be thrown out in, well, bankrputcy?
Foreign Ownership and Cabotage are huge threats. But that must be handled at the legislative level and has little to do with our contract.
Successorship, Merger, Fragmentation and Change of Control are also important, but we already have about as much protection in those areas that any contract, especially any ALPA contract, can provide given the era of relative arbitration and the federal merger law.
So that's why IMO DCI is by far the biggest issue that is causing the most dammage that is most within our control. Its the issue that we can do the most about in C2012. Its the issue that our current book drops the ball on the most and that our next book can make the most progress on.
A close second would be the AK code share abuse, but there are at lease some supposed revenue sharing restrictions. Not so with DCI, where we get 100% of the revenue after paying 105-110 or so percent of the costs. And DCI is WAY, WAY, WAY bigger an outsourcing and a downward force cancer than AK.
YMMV.
09-28-2011, 10:48 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
09-28-2011, 11:04 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
09-28-2011, 11:07 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Thank you
09-28-2011, 11:11 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Alright you super fantastic sexy scope gurus.
I am stuck on question 13 "the list" please break down how you numbered and why PLEASE!
Here is the list and it is not in a priority order, just as it was listed in the survey
Amount of flying done by DCI carriers (e.g. Compass, Comair, etc.)
Successorship/Merger with another carrier
Fragmentation/Transfer of Assets
Change of Control
Cabotage
Alter Ego
Subcontracting
Bankruptcy 1113 Protection
Foreign Ownership
I am stuck on question 13 "the list" please break down how you numbered and why PLEASE!
Here is the list and it is not in a priority order, just as it was listed in the survey
Amount of flying done by DCI carriers (e.g. Compass, Comair, etc.)
Successorship/Merger with another carrier
Fragmentation/Transfer of Assets
Change of Control
Cabotage
Alter Ego
Subcontracting
Bankruptcy 1113 Protection
Foreign Ownership
Free advice = the amount paid for such advice.
09-28-2011, 11:54 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 917
Alright you super fantastic sexy scope gurus.
I am stuck on question 13 "the list" please break down how you numbered and why PLEASE!
Here is the list and it is not in a priority order, just as it was listed in the survey
Amount of flying done by DCI carriers (e.g. Compass, Comair, etc.)
Successorship/Merger with another carrier
Fragmentation/Transfer of Assets
Change of Control
Cabotage
Alter Ego
Subcontracting
Bankruptcy 1113 Protection
Foreign Ownership
I am stuck on question 13 "the list" please break down how you numbered and why PLEASE!
Here is the list and it is not in a priority order, just as it was listed in the survey
Amount of flying done by DCI carriers (e.g. Compass, Comair, etc.)
Successorship/Merger with another carrier
Fragmentation/Transfer of Assets
Change of Control
Cabotage
Alter Ego
Subcontracting
Bankruptcy 1113 Protection
Foreign Ownership
09-28-2011, 12:32 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Sailing,
This is a disturbing post. If this is the reality of the situation, why even bother with surveys, openers, or negotiations at all? If this is how it is, it seems we are lucky just to even have the company talk to us. You make it seem like we have to beg the company to have discussions and if we ask for too much, they will take that privilege away. Really? How do you know? I thought this was a new Delta management team.
Look. I like Delta. I want Delta to succeed. I want Delta to make a lot of money. I want Delta to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world. I think, because we are all proud individuals, we all want to work for the best airline in the world.
But, come on -- It has got to be a two way street. Delta has got to want its pilots to succeed. Not, just at getting airplanes from point A to B, but outside of work, too. They have got to know that employing some of the most conscientious, professional, type A, results oriented, pilots in the industry should and does come at a cost. They have got to know that the more pilots they have that have side businesses and second careers, and aspirations to work somewhere else, only hurts them. They have got to know that to get to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world, they have got to be the airline of choice for every pilot in the world. Especially, since they rely so heavily on pilots to make the operation go.
The suggestion that if we merely ask for "the huge opener" it will result in the company walking away from negotiations for 14 months, indicates that you think the company doesn't respect us -- that you think the company will choose to punish us in this way as if we are a bunch of 3 year olds. It even suggests that you believe the company will behave in a childish fashion and take their ball and go home, if they don't like what they hear, which I don't believe. But, if this is the case, let the opener at least reveal that we are self-respecting adults. If the company wants to play games, we will at least know what we are dealing with from the beginning, instead of the end.
Seriously, in my opinion, I would think the company would have less respect for us if we don't ask for the huge opener. What type of person doesn't ask to be paid the same as his highest peer is paid? What type of person is threatened or intimidated to even ask?
To be honest with you, I don't think the opener has anything to do with being happy or unhappy. I don't even think it as to do with what the rational or irrational pilot thinks, either. This opener has everything to do with respect.
I think we should respect ourselves enough to ask for what we want -- for what we see our highest peers making, plus some-- then have the confidence that the company will respect us enough to go from there.
New K Now
(Sorry for the length.)
This is a disturbing post. If this is the reality of the situation, why even bother with surveys, openers, or negotiations at all? If this is how it is, it seems we are lucky just to even have the company talk to us. You make it seem like we have to beg the company to have discussions and if we ask for too much, they will take that privilege away. Really? How do you know? I thought this was a new Delta management team.
Look. I like Delta. I want Delta to succeed. I want Delta to make a lot of money. I want Delta to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world. I think, because we are all proud individuals, we all want to work for the best airline in the world.
But, come on -- It has got to be a two way street. Delta has got to want its pilots to succeed. Not, just at getting airplanes from point A to B, but outside of work, too. They have got to know that employing some of the most conscientious, professional, type A, results oriented, pilots in the industry should and does come at a cost. They have got to know that the more pilots they have that have side businesses and second careers, and aspirations to work somewhere else, only hurts them. They have got to know that to get to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world, they have got to be the airline of choice for every pilot in the world. Especially, since they rely so heavily on pilots to make the operation go.
The suggestion that if we merely ask for "the huge opener" it will result in the company walking away from negotiations for 14 months, indicates that you think the company doesn't respect us -- that you think the company will choose to punish us in this way as if we are a bunch of 3 year olds. It even suggests that you believe the company will behave in a childish fashion and take their ball and go home, if they don't like what they hear, which I don't believe. But, if this is the case, let the opener at least reveal that we are self-respecting adults. If the company wants to play games, we will at least know what we are dealing with from the beginning, instead of the end.
Seriously, in my opinion, I would think the company would have less respect for us if we don't ask for the huge opener. What type of person doesn't ask to be paid the same as his highest peer is paid? What type of person is threatened or intimidated to even ask?
To be honest with you, I don't think the opener has anything to do with being happy or unhappy. I don't even think it as to do with what the rational or irrational pilot thinks, either. This opener has everything to do with respect.
I think we should respect ourselves enough to ask for what we want -- for what we see our highest peers making, plus some-- then have the confidence that the company will respect us enough to go from there.
New K Now
(Sorry for the length.)
More importantly though, this attitude is the EXACT reason why we need professional negotitors that are UNEMOTIONALLY attached. This I learned from my forced vacation from Delta when I entered the corporate world
We need negotiators that are there only to maximize the returns to the bottom line and are not there to protect empires that have been built and feather nested.
Negotiators that use outside impartial counsel and advice i.e. investment banking and analysis.
DALPA is a business. An entity if you will that you have to ask yourself if they will push the envelope to achieve restoration, or, lay up to protect their status quo.
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